+2 ATT TH vs Hex with HIP?

[commissar1969]

Citizens:

Well, the title pretty much poses the question, albeit in abbreviated form:

If I am firing a Gun, Area Target Type vs. a hex and it turns out there were HIP Units in the hex, does a retroactive +2 mod apply since HIP is a form of Concealment?

Please advise.

Thanks in advance,

Chuck Hammond

 

[buser333]

Yes. Recon by fire is always subject to halving, and thus the +2 TH. The only exception I can think of is smoke, and I imagine if it turns out there is a unit there it would apply to this as well.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

That is saying any (non Smoke) fire into an empty hex is +2 TH, correct?

 

[buser333]

That is saying any (non Smoke) fire into an empty hex is +2 TH, correct?

That is my understanding, yes.

 

[commissar1969]

How would that work, though? OK: I need a "7" to hit that woods hex with ATT. I roll a "7" and then my opponent says I missed because there are HIP guys in there??

 

[fanatic+1]

If there is not a known enemy unit in the target hex it is +2 TH on area fire

 

[Brian W]

If there is not a known enemy unit in the target hex it is +2 TH on area fire

With the important exception mentioned above that a possible HIP unit does not add +2 Case K to a SMOKE placement attempt.

 

[jrv]

How would that work, though? OK: I need a "7" to hit that woods hex with ATT. I roll a "7" and then my opponent says I missed because there are HIP guys in there??

After he rolls the TH dice, you say, "um, ok." The attack will hit on a five whether there is a HIP unit or not. Even if there is no HIP unit there is still the potential for flame. In general when your opponent makes an attack you don't have to tell him what he missed. You might comment that the TH DR wouldn't have hit a HIP unit if you wanted to be beneficent (or rub it in) but you are not required to say anything.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

If there is not a known enemy unit in the target hex it is +2 TH on area fire

Where do you find that in the rules? C3.?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Where do you find that in the rules? C3.?

C6.2:
"Ordnance firing at a hidden/concealed target [EXC: pillbox/cave occupant; B30.7 and G11.812] must add the +2 DRM of Case K to its TH DR..."

 

[Eagle4ty]

C6.2:
"Ordnance firing at a hidden/concealed target [EXC: pillbox/cave occupant; B30.7 and G11.812] must add the +2 DRM of Case K to its TH DR..."

:nod:Hidden/concealed yes, no problem, but say there are no HIP/Concealed units and I want to fire at a building devoid of any other targets (C3.41 The Infantry, as well as the Area, Target Type may be used to attack a unarmored-target/unmanned-Gun/building/bridge/vehicle, and may also attack a hex devoid of such. [EXC: The Infantry Target Type (3.32) attacks a specific Location rather than an entire hex, and cannot be used to attack an AFV.]). **just my pet peeve I know.

 

[commissar1969]

C6.2:
"Ordnance firing at a hidden/concealed target [EXC: pillbox/cave occupant; B30.7 and G11.812] must add the +2 DRM of Case K to its TH DR..."

Thanks!

 

[von Marwitz]

[EXC: The Infantry Target Type (3.32) attacks a specific Location rather than an entire hex, and cannot be used to attack an AFV.]). **just my pet peeve I know.

Just to make sure if I get this right:

There is a hex devoid of any visible target.

I claim that there might be a HIP tank in the hex (which is ok regardless of whether the enemy actually has any AFV or not in his OoB). I declare the VTT adding TEM and the +2 for a concealed (supposed) target. So assuming TEM being +1 for woods, range of 6 being BU+1 and the HIP tank being of normal size, I would hit on a final DR of 10 +2 Concealed +1 Woods TEM +1 BU = 6
Because I hit a vehicular target, it will lose HIP and I do gain a small 1/2" Acquisition.

In case I supect HIP Infantry, in the seemingly empty hex, I could declare the ITT (with which I could theoretically hit HIP infantry which then would also gain me 1/2" Acquisition in case I manage to strip Concealment. But even if my TH roll would be theoretically low enough to his the HIP AFV (as sole occupant) in the hex, I cannot hit it because I declared a target type that does not match the target.

von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

:nod:Hidden/concealed yes, no problem, but say there are no HIP/Concealed units and I want to fire at a building devoid of any other targets (C3.41 The Infantry, as well as the Area, Target Type may be used to attack a unarmored-target/unmanned-Gun/building/bridge/vehicle, and may also attack a hex devoid of such. [EXC: The Infantry Target Type (3.32) attacks a specific Location rather than an entire hex, and cannot be used to attack an AFV.]). **just my pet peeve I know.

Per (unofficial) Q&A you have to add the +2 as well, as you don't make the effects DR unless you "hit" a potential hidden target.'

C3. & C6.2
Assume the following situation: A Mortar is 6 hexes away from a building hex that contains a concealed enemy unit. No To Hit
DRM apply, so the Basic To Hit Number for the Area Target Type is 7 and vs. the concealed unit Case K (+2) applies. So I need a
5 or less to hit the concealed unit. If I roll a 6 or 7 I miss the concealed unit but do I still “hit” the building so I can roll an effects
DR vs. it to possibly rubble it ?
A. No.

The same situation but the building hex is empty and I want to try and rubble it. Do I have to add Case K in this case as well
(hitting a potential HIP unit) before I can make an effects DR?, or do I “hit” building in this case with a TH DR <= 7 ?
A. You have to add Case K.

 

[commissar1969]

Per (unofficial) Q&A you have to add the +2 as well, as you don't make the effects DR unless you "hit" a potential hidden target.'

C3. & C6.2
Assume the following situation: A Mortar is 6 hexes away from a building hex that contains a concealed enemy unit. No To Hit
DRM apply, so the Basic To Hit Number for the Area Target Type is 7 and vs. the concealed unit Case K (+2) applies. So I need a
5 or less to hit the concealed unit. If I roll a 6 or 7 I miss the concealed unit but do I still “hit” the building so I can roll an effects
DR vs. it to possibly rubble it ?
A. No.

The same situation but the building hex is empty and I want to try and rubble it. Do I have to add Case K in this case as well
(hitting a potential HIP unit) before I can make an effects DR?, or do I “hit” building in this case with a TH DR <= 7 ?
A. You have to add Case K.

Thanks so much for this answer.

So I have to add Case K, EVEN IF the opponent is not even allotted HIP units? I promise this is my last question on this thread! LOL

 

[Eagle4ty]

Per (unofficial) Q&A you have to add the +2 as well, as you don't make the effects DR unless you "hit" a potential hidden target.'

C3. & C6.2
Assume the following situation: A Mortar is 6 hexes away from a building hex that contains a concealed enemy unit. No To Hit
DRM apply, so the Basic To Hit Number for the Area Target Type is 7 and vs. the concealed unit Case K (+2) applies. So I need a
5 or less to hit the concealed unit. If I roll a 6 or 7 I miss the concealed unit but do I still “hit” the building so I can roll an effects
DR vs. it to possibly rubble it ?
A. No.

The same situation but the building hex is empty and I want to try and rubble it. Do I have to add Case K in this case as well
(hitting a potential HIP unit) before I can make an effects DR?, or do I “hit” building in this case with a TH DR <= 7 ?
A. You have to add Case K.

Yup, I was well aware of this Q&A but simply wanted to point out that nowhere in the rules does it state one must apply a +2 TH DRM to an empty hex/building/bridge/etc.; or does it even state that? Does one have to pay the additional +2 to target a bridge? I've heard both ways. If one accepts that a target must be present in the location the answer would be yes; If one accepts that the procedures to target a bridge are lain out in Chapter B, I'm not so sure as it seems a bit ambiguous. To me that Q&A seems to help fray the rule at the edges somewhat. It really gets somewhat out of hand when you add in a "target" with a target size TH modifier as it now becomes harder or easier to hit say a building just because the "target" is effecting the TH possibilities (in no way has the building become larger/smaller). I realize it is the game we play but I would wish for a modicum of a common sense approach to some rules interpretations. It is especially troublesome/confusing when ASL was a derivative of SL and there one could target a building. The fact that there is no rule specifically pointing out procedures to target and/or hit a "target" vacant location/hex and leave it up to assumption or very slim inference is disturbing. I know I play it the way it has been interpreted, but I don't have to like it!

 

[jrv]

There are two more q&a:

C6.2 If using Area Target Type at an empty hex, would Case K (concealed target) apply?
A. Yes, unless firing SMOKE. [Compil5]
C6.2 If a gun fires at a "vacant" location searching for HIP units, does it pay the +2 To Hit DRM for a concealed unit?
A. Yes. [Compil9]

These both indicate that a hex devoid of (non-HIP) enemy units gets "concealed target" DRM.

JR