12.2 Concealed Counters

Jude

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
Messages
408
Reaction score
468
Location
Colorado Springs
Country
llUnited States
If using 1/2" counters to simulate a concealed gun in non concealment terrain, is the "gun" considered emplaced or non emplaced for concealment loss purposes?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Assuming we are talking about 5/8" counters here. Dummies may not be set up in non-concealment terrain [A12.12]. It is relatively hard to find a good way to use Dummies to simulate a Gun because Guns are usually HIP, and the Dummies stand out as Dummies.

JR
 

WuWei

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
912
Location
Germany
First name
Tobias
Country
llGermany
It is relatively hard to find a good way to use Dummies to simulate a Gun because Guns are usually HIP, and the Dummies stand out as Dummies.
One of the "Verdict at Nuremberg" scenarios has ?-counters and a SSR that guns can't set up HIP. I only realized afterwards that this would have been the perfect opportunity for a few dummy guns.
 

Jude

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
Messages
408
Reaction score
468
Location
Colorado Springs
Country
llUnited States
I just got ahead of myself trying to be sneaky and thought I had a clever plan. I knew about the at start dummy concealment rule but got too focused on a potential cool trick. Glad I asked first.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
You can use dummies for a gun on a paved orchard-road, but an unemplaced gun will lose concealment on LOS, so dummies will be apparent.

JR
 

clubby

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,410
Reaction score
642
Location
CA
Country
llUnited States
Do Dummies setup on rooftops lose Concealment on LOS? Like a Dummy 5/8" mortar. I think yes
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
1,024
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
You can use dummies for a gun on a paved orchard-road, but an unemplaced gun will lose concealment on LOS, so dummies will be apparent.
Am I playing this wrong? I thought a non-emplaced gun in concealment terrain losses concealment pretty much like any other infantry.

EDIT: perhaps it is because an unemplaced gun on an orchard road is revealed if los is down the road?
 

clubby

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,410
Reaction score
642
Location
CA
Country
llUnited States
You are. Unemplaced gun within 16 and LOS is H ? is lost automatically. Like an AFV.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Am I playing this wrong? I thought a non-emplaced gun in concealment terrain losses concealment pretty much like any other infantry.
Sorry; my confusion. I was playing a desert scenario with the possibility non-emplaced guns in non-concealment terrain recently, and I mis-remembered. They lose concealment at all ranges. In concealment terrain non-emplaced guns lose concealment like infantry at < 17 hexes. So a dummy in a paved-orchard would not stand out (except that you hardly every put a gun out non-emplaced).

JR
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
1,024
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
You are. Unemplaced gun within 16 and LOS is H ? is lost automatically.
That is in non-concealment terrain. An orchard-road hex is concealment terrain (unless the LOS is traced down the road).
 

clubby

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,410
Reaction score
642
Location
CA
Country
llUnited States
I guess I just answered my own question about dummy mortars on rooftops because rooftops are concealment terrain for setup only. No big deal, I wanted them there for setup to funnel him away from that area towards the emplaced HIP mortar.
 

clubby

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,410
Reaction score
642
Location
CA
Country
llUnited States
That is in non-concealment terrain. An orchard-road hex is concealment terrain (unless the LOS is traced down the road).
Sorry, I thought for some reason it was about non-concealment terrain. Probably because of how jrv answered, I just assumed. Shouldn't assume.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
That is in non-concealment terrain. An orchard-road hex is concealment terrain (unless the LOS is traced down the road).
Even if the LOS is traced down the road it is concealment terrain. FFMO applies if the unit is moving using road movement and the LOS does not leave the road depiction.

JR
 
Last edited:

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Do Dummies setup on rooftops lose Concealment on LOS? Like a Dummy 5/8" mortar. I think yes
Dummies may set up on rooftops per B23.82 because rooftops are concealment terrain for setup. Units on rooftops lose concealment normally, and also if a unit has LOS from the same/higher elevation within 16 hexes. On the other hand a gun is not emplaced on a rooftop, and since rooftops are not concealment terrain once play begins, it would be obvious that a 5/8" counter on a rooftop is a dummy when it *didn't* lose concealment on LOS. You can use them to bluff your opponent when he is entering from off-board, but the ruse will be up pretty quickly.

JR
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
1,024
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
Even if the LOS is traced down the road it is concealment terrain. FFMO applies if the unit is moving using road movement and the LOS does not leave the road depiction.
Isn't there errata saying that vehicles lose concealment when in a woods-road/orchard-road hex if LOS is traced down the road? I was presuming this is what you were referring to earlier.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Isn't there errata saying that vehicles lose concealment when in a woods-road/orchard-road hex if LOS is traced down the road? I was presuming this is what you were referring to earlier.
Woods-road, but not orchard-road. And it only mentions vehicles.

JR
 
Top