10.5 cm FlaK 38/39 for ASL?

Midnightnoa

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I know it's not published officially, but has anyone done any thought on what it would look like in the game? The main thing I am wondering now is as it is an L61 weapon, would it have the same gun status (105L) as the K18 field gun (L52)? Or would it be considered a 105LL?

This of course brings up the whole question of AP round effectiveness. It was described as being "slightly more effective then the 88mm FlaK 36/37". So going by this you could use the current 105L listing on the AP to Kill chart. Oddly, a discarding sabot round was designed for the 105...

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
 

thedrake

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Isnt this the one in Heat of Battle "At the Sharp End" scenario pack? Not handy at moment for me to check.
 

Midnightnoa

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Isnt this the one in Heat of Battle "At the Sharp End" scenario pack? Not handy at moment for me to check.
You're spot on. It's there as well as the 12.8cm FlaK 40. It is indeed a 105L so will go with the standard 105L AP kill # unless/until I find out if there's a special chart entry for it. I guess I'll use 88 counters to represent it. Thanks a lot!
 

Paul M. Weir

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The one penetration figure I could find was 6.5" or 16.51 cm at 90° at 1000 yds. Allowing for the usual problems with translating from metric to imperial and back again, I'll call that 16 cm at 1000 m. Add 5 (the standard ASL base) and 1 (1000m vs the ASL standard of 500m) that gives a TK of 22. I suppose an additional 1 could be justified due to the heavier shell to bring it to 23.

MV was 880 m/s (2880 ft/s), which still leaves it in the "L" class, just. It's MV was a little higher than the 10 cm sK 18 at 835 m/s, likely enough to grant an extra 1 or even 2 to the TK. Don't forget that the ASL 105L TK is a generic number that could apply to multiple nationalities.

As for Sabot? While the British went sabot for AP purposes, most nations that tried sabot were trying to increase range. I bet the 10.5cm sabot was a sabot version of the 8.8 cm FlaK 18/36/37 round to gain greater altitude against aircraft. As it was, the 8.8 cm FlaK 41 and 12.8 cm FlaK 40 easily outperformed it in the AA role.

It was a little lighter at 10 tonne than the 15 cm K 18 at 12 tonne, so I would give it a M# of -2 or -3. There were reliability problems with it as well, fired cartridge cases often jammed, so much so that it was kept in Germany where maintenance was easier. So I would limit RoF to [1] and give it a B11.

So: 105L, "T", RoF [1], B11, No Limbered fire, M(-2), TK 23. That's my best estimate, possibly a tiny bit generous in TK and M#, but still very reasonable.
 

von Marwitz

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I have not found much on the performance of the 10.5cm Flak 38/39 in the ground role. The Panzergranate had a weight of 15.6kg IIRC and a bit more punch than that of the 8.8cm Flak 18 but less than the 8.8cm Pak 41. Probably, Mr. Weir's estimates for purposes of ASL are pretty much spot on.

That said, the 10.5cm Flak was deemed to heavy and unwieldy to move for the ground role against tanks. IIRC numbers in the upper 800s were used in fixed positions, again in the upper 800s on towed two-axle trailers similar to the 8.8cm FlaK and in the mid 300s mounted on special rail-cars.

von Marwitz
 

Midnightnoa

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Here's something to consider. The Flak 38/39 was quite heavy, but it still could be limbered , (It even had special equipment included on the field mount). so how does this sound?

Slow Movement (SM): This is a Gun that can be (un)limbered in the field during a scenario, but it takes more time then the typical Gun. This is represented by requiring a number of turns (2-3?) to (un)limber. Place TI counters on the Gun and Crew during the (un)limbering process. After the process is complete the Gun can then be towed or fired as appropriate. If the crew fails an MC and breaks, the process must be restarted once the crew Rallies.

I was thinking 3 turns, One to attach each of the wheeled segments, and another to fold the other two parts of the cruciform mount, turn the Gun into battery, etc.

Also, in pre-ASL Squad Leader, one of the 88's required 2 crew counters to operate it. That could possibly apply to the 10.5 cm as it had a crew of 10.

What do people think of these?
 

bprobst

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So you want to create new rules for a weapon not represented in the game (except in a product no longer in print and not subject to errata).

It's not that your rules suggestions are inherently unreasonable. They do however raise questions like "why does this gun require this rule and no other? Was it really that unique?". And if you say "sure, apply it to other guns" then someone has to do that research and make judgement calls and you're talking about errata that not everyone will see any value in.

There are other practical issues. A multi-turn limbering process is going to require a counter so that the current limbered status of the gun is known at any time. Easily doable, of course.

More problematic is the multi-crew suggestion. You will need a ton of additional rules to cover all of the possibilities (which is, I suspect, that ASL dumped the concept of "multiple crews" in the first place). If one crew is pinned, how does that affect the weapon? If one crew is broken, how does that affect the weapon? What if you have one crew and one other (non-qualified) unit? Does one squad count as a replacement for two crews? Some of these questions no doubt have easy answers, but the fact that your suggestion doesn't even begin to touch these possibilities (and there may be others not occurring to me) indicates that it's not really a very well thought out suggestion.

The thing to remember is that in ASL everything is abstract. How many men does a single crew counter represent? The answer is that it represents exactly as many men as it needs to represent at that moment in time. Just like a game turn: how long does it take to (un)limber a Gun? Why, it takes a single Fire Phase. How much time does a single Fire Phase represent? Well, amongst other things, it represents the "reasonable" amount of time required to (un)limber a Gun. If the time required isn't "reasonable" to do that work, then it can't be done at all within the time frame of a scenario.

I know the rules say that a Game Turn represents "two minutes of actual time" but if you have any experience with ASL at all you know that is nonsense; the truth is that a Game Turn represents the amount of time required to do the things that you want to accomplish in a Game Turn. You can't unscrew the mechanics of "ASL reality" and look at the parts; it's a unified whole.
 

von Marwitz

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There is a lot of sense in what Bruce points out.

We all love a certain amount of chrome in ASL - that's one of the reasons why we play it.

Yet, I believe one has to carefully consider in which instances extra chrome can make sense to give extra detail or flavor and in which instances it merely burdens the game and creates extra problems instead of added benefit.

In the case of the 10,5cm FlaK 38/39 I think there would be no benefit by extra chrome.
  • The weapon itself was relatively rare to begin with.
  • It was extremely rare in the ground role deployment from unfixed, non railroad-car conditions.
  • It would we beyond extremely rare to find a documented instance where such a gun wanted to limber/change positions while in the ground role under fire.
  • It would border on a wonder if an ASL scenario would be made based on that situation (but I grant that it is not a requirement for an ASL scenario to be based on historical accuracy).
  • But even all this left unconsidered, if you have such a weapon within the frame of an ASL scenario, you would rather use the Gun rather than attempt to laboriously limber it and move it about to change positions, which would require numerous game turns. Unless a Victory Condition would require you to do so, I reckon, it would never happen.
So a lot of extra rules would have to be created for a situation that would never come up in a game.

That said, some rules do exist for some unwieldy heavy Guns:

C10.12 UNHOOKING: A Stopped vehicle not in Bypass may unhook a Gun only by spending half (FRU) of its MP/MF allotment [EXC: if the Gun's M# is circled (e.g., M, the vehicle must expend two-thirds (FRU) of its MP/MF allotment] under the otherwise same conditions as were necessary for hooking up (10.11). That Gun's crew may disembark from that vehicle at no extra MP/MF cost as part of that unhooking procedure, but that crew and Gun must remain TI in that hex [EXC: that vehicle may expend its remaining MP/MF]. After being unhooked, certain Guns must still be unlimbered (10.21) before they can be fired. Neither the crew nor the vehicle/PRC may fire during that PFPh/MPh prior to unhooking. A Gun's CA may be changed simultaneously as it is (un)hooked.

C10.25 RESTRICTED FIRE, NO MOVEMENT (RFNM): A Gun listed as RFNM may not (un)limber; i.e., it cannot be unlimbered if in tow at scenario start, and cannot be limbered or pushed if in firing mode at scenario start. Furthermore, it may not use To Hit Cases A (i.e., it cannot change its CA), E (i.e., it cannot fire if a Known enemy unit occupies its own hex), J4, or L (it can fire at one or two hex range but does not receive this DRM), and any use of Case J is always doubled at ≤ six hexes.

C10.26 NO MOVEMENT (NM): A Gun listed as NM may change CA normally, but may not (un)limber; i.e., it cannot be unlimbered if in tow at scenario start, and cannot be limbered or pushed if in firing mode at scenario start.

C10.3 PUSHING: A limbered or QSU Gun [EXC: if having NM or RFNM] can conceivably be pushed (and simultaneously have its CA changed) during the MPh by a Good Order crew (as per 10.111) at double its normal MF cost, provided it makes a Final DR ≤ its M#/M$(b) for each hex it attempts to enter. ...


What cannot be covered by this would be better handled via SSR if need be rather than by extra standard rules IMHO.

von Marwitz
 

Midnightnoa

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Points taken, I guess ditch it.

I apologize for not thinking out the full implications about the Slow Movement concept. Rule C10.12's comment on heavy guns is workable enough on it's own. I am rather new to ASL, my experience is mainly with classic Squad Leader, Again, sorry.
 
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Yuri0352

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Points taken, I guess ditch it.

I apologize for not thinking out the full implications about the Slow Movement concept. Rule C10.12's comment on heavy guns is workable enough on it's own. I am rather new to ASL, my experience is mainly with classic Squad Leader, Again, sorry.
Definitely no need to apologize... while I may not be in favor of your proposals, I do appreciate the discussion. We were all 'new to ASL' at one point.
Happy Easter! :).
 

thedrake

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MIDNIGHTNOA,
You good...all of us were new to ASL at some point. Still valid to bring up something you think may need to be included.
Here is the counter and ordnance notes from Time on Target #2. Think it is already pretty well covered.
12690
12691
 

Midnightnoa

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Thanks! Those views are rather helpful You know, those look very familiar, the charts, the "can be limbered even though listed as NM". I think I had that data before, but it was one of the files that got destroyed when my old machine's drive crashed badly. If so then double thanks.

By the way, is there a way to change a username? Name's supposed to be "Midnightnova" but the v got dropped.
 
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von Marwitz

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Points taken, I guess ditch it.

I apologize for not thinking out the full implications about the Slow Movement concept. Rule C10.12's comment on heavy guns is workable enough on it's own. I am rather new to ASL, my experience is mainly with classic Squad Leader, Again, sorry.
No need to apologize, mate. If this is not the place to voice once thoughts about ASL then no place is.

And not only new ASLers benefit from this but also grognards because there seem to be some people some sort of special knowledge about even the most obscure parts of the system or historical background. That's why I am lingering here for a decade by now...

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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By the way, is there a way to change a username? Name's supposed to be "Midnightnova" but the v got dropped.
I'd contact one of the Moderators with that issue. Either they should be able to do it, know how you can do it or know someone who can do it.

Cheers,
von Marwitz
 

Paul M. Weir

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RandyT0001 might be able, I, a humble Spam Eater, either can't or doesn't know how to.
 
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