Platoon Movement / Minefield Attack/TPBF v surviving crew

[Doug Leslie]

In the above diagram, the T34s are using platoon movement. In their first impulse, the leading tank expends 3 MP to cross the wall and enter P28 in bypass while the second tank enters P29. The minefield attack in P29 has no effect. The Russian player now wishes to continue moving the lead tank to O28 while the second tank enters bypass in P28. He declares that they will expend 14 MPs to do this (thereby allowing the second tank to VBM freeze the 548). This time however the first tank is immobilised when the German player rolls a 1 for the AT minefield attack. It then fails its immobilisation TC and its crew is placed in the CAFP of P28. This means that the second tank cannot enter P28 as the lead tank blocks it from using VBM.

1. Am I right in thinking that the 548 must use TPBF against the crew before any other defensive first fire against it (ie the crew acquires infantry status as soon as it leaves the vehicle)?

2. Which of the following now applies to the second tank?

a. It is freed from the requirement to use platoon movement and can now spend 14 MPs to move elsewhere

b. It must spend 14 MPs to remain in motion where it is

c. It must spends its remaining 14 MPs to stop where it is

 

[Stewart]

B. the MP's were already expended. Similarly to bypassing any terrain feature you can't bypass normally.


The hexside clearance measurement
cannot be made until the VBM and all applicable MP costs are announced
(and thus expended in the previously occupied hex/hexside if the move is
subsequently not allowed)

It happened to expend all, however, it states you must expend an extra MP to stop. I'm pretty sure you don't have to take an ESB, you'd likely remain in motion, but the rules specify stop...

 

[Doug Leslie]

C. the MP's were already expended. Similarly to bypassing any terrain feature you can't bypass normally.

If that is correct, would it not need to spend an extra MP to stop?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

1. Am I right in thinking that the 548 must use TPBF against the crew before any other defensive first fire against it (ie the crew acquires infantry status as soon as it leaves the vehicle)?

No, the crew did not enter the Location as Infantry....

 

[Doug Leslie]

B. the MP's were already expended. Similarly to bypassing any terrain feature you can't bypass normally.


The hexside clearance measurement
cannot be made until the VBM and all applicable MP costs are announced
(and thus expended in the previously occupied hex/hexside if the move is
subsequently not allowed)

It happened to expend all, however, it states you must expend an extra MP to stop. I'm pretty sure you don't have to take an ESB, you'd likely remain in motion, but the rules specify stop...

I have found this Q&A:


D2.3 & D2.5
A vehicle is spending its last two MP to do VBM. Hexside clearance proves to be insufficient (D2.3). According to D2.3, the vehicle must expend one extra MP to stop in its present position. As the vehicle has run out of MP, must the vehicle attempt ESB for that purpose ?

A. It must attempt ESB to stop. If it cannot attempt ESB (e.g., D2.6 or already ESBed), it does not stop.”

So if “B” is correct, the second tank has to roll for ESB, which is prohibited if it is still part of the platoon.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think the second tank just remains in P29 spending the 14 MP there (since VBM is now blocked by the wreck).

However, after the first tank becomes Immobilized, it's no longer part of the platoon. Then the second tanks is also no longer part of a platoon using Impulse Movement, so I think it can now attempt ESP to stop if it wants to.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I think the second tank just remains in P29 spending the 14 MP there (since VBM is now blocked by the wreck).

However, after the first tank becomes Immobilized, it's no longer part of the platoon. Then the second tanks is also no longer part of a platoon using Impulse Movement, so I think it can now attempt ESP to stop if it wants to.

Extra-sensory perception? Now that option hadn't occurred to me!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

In a way the second tank's movement into VBM becomes an illegal move - retroactively - as the first one is Immobilized trying to get out of the way.

To be honest I am not sure the rules cover this situation, so "remains in P29 spending the 14 MP" is how I think I would play it....

 

[Doug Leslie]

In a way the second tank's movement into VBM becomes an illegal move - retroactively - as the first one is Immobilized trying to get out of the way.

To be honest I am not sure the rules cover this situation, so "remains in P29 spending the 14 MP" is how I think I would play it....

The capacity for ASL to throw up situations that I have never come across before despite playing it for over thirty years never fails to amaze me.

 

[Wayne]

OP option 2.a. is correct: "It is freed from the requirement to use platoon movement and can now spend 14 MPs to move elsewhere"

... This means that the second tank cannot enter P28 as the lead tank blocks it from using VBM.

Nor does it need to.

D14.31 IMPULSE: ... Units using Impulse Movement do not need to predesignate their actions ...

D14.22 GAPS: If an AFV is destroyed, Recalled, uses non-platoon movement (14.23) or becomes Immobile, it is no longer considered part of the platoon. A radioless AFV that suffers Recall is thereafter treated as if radio-equipped. If the remaining two AFV of a former three-AFV platoon do not fulfill the re- quirements of 14.21, they must move to do so at the end of the first impulse in which one or both of them enter a new hex (unless they end their MPh in their current hexes). If they haven’t done so by the end of their MPh or this happens during any other phase, they immediately cease using Platoon Movement. If only one AFV is remaining, it is free from platoon restrictions for the remainder of its current MPh.

So, after the lead tank moves and becomes immobile, the second tank gets to complete Its MPh as though Radio-equipped in this case.

Further, as the second tank has not predesignated nor expended any Impulse MP in concert w/the now-immobile lead tank, the second tank's remaining MP are what remain after its expenditure prior to the bad-stuff Impulse which ruined the day of the lead tank.

 

[Doug Leslie]

OP option 2.a. is correct: "It is freed from the requirement to use platoon movement and can now spend 14 MPs to move elsewhere"

Nor does it need to.

So, after the lead tank moves and becomes immobile, the second tank gets to complete Its MPh as though Radio-equipped in this case.

Further, as the second tank has not predesignated nor expended any Impulse MP in concert w/the now-immobile lead tank, the second tank's remaining MP are what remain after its expenditure prior to the bad-stuff Impulse which ruined the day of the lead tank.

That's how I played it. The "no need to predesignate" part seems to cover the situation.

 

[Stewart]

The second tank isnt' freed from Platoon movement until AFTER that impulse, which it has no MP remaining.

If that is correct, would it not need to spend an extra MP to stop?

The rules suggest the Extra MP, no EXC for ESB.

 

[Doug Leslie]

The second tank isnt' freed from Platoon movement until AFTER that impulse, which it has no MP remaining.

The rules suggest the Extra MP, no EXC for ESB.

But that is a different rule that applies when there is insufficient clearance for a VBM attempt. If platoon members don’t have to predesignate their moves, does this not suggest that the impulse cost is not calculated until they have all actually moved? So in the situation that I have queried, the first AFV would have spent 1MP if the minefield hadn’t scuppered it. The second AFV would then “announce“ that it was going to spend 14 MP for its move, and at this point the total MP for the impulse would be the higher figure. What else could the “no predesignation” rule mean?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...If platoon members don’t have to predesignate their moves, does this not suggest that the impulse cost is not calculated until they have all actually moved?...

It does, and then the Impulse will cost as many MP as the AFV that expended the most...

So in the situation that I have queried, the first AFV would have spent 1MP if the minefield hadn’t scuppered it.

It depends - it would have spent as many MP as was announces when it tried to exit the minefield. Per Q&A a "minefield exit" attack is rolled for immediately (an "enter" attack would be rolled for at the end of the Impulse).

The second AFV would then “announce“ that it was going to spend 14 MP for its move, and at this point the total MP for the impulse would be the higher figure. What else could the “no predesignation” rule mean?

Correct. If the second AFV attempts a move that costs more MP than the first one spent, then first one spent the same amount.