Pillbox Ambush

[BraveDave]

Per Perry Q&A:

"A9.4 & B30.7 - Situation is German HMG (7FP) and German MMG (5FP) firing at > 16 range at an infantry target in a pillbox for a base total of 12FP. Are MG attacks vs unbroken, non-overstacked, good order infantry in a PB at > 16 range halved for concealment, i.e., is the FP of this attack above 6 FP or 2 FP?

A. No; 6 FP."

Since units in a PB are not considered concealed for this rule would they be considered concealed for purposes of ambush, assuming they have not taken any action to remove their initial concealment status at setup? Can they add a -2 to their ambush dr for being concealed?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Since units in a PB are not considered concealed for this rule would they be considered concealed for purposes of ambush, assuming they have not taken any action to remove their initial concealment status at setup? Can they add a -2 to their ambush dr for being concealed?

Yes...B30.7 only says:
"however, “?”/HIP in a pillbox neither halves the FP of, nor adds a TH DRM to, an attack on it/its-contents."

 

[BraveDave]

Yes...B30.7 only says:
"however, “?”/HIP in a pillbox neither halves the FP of, nor adds a TH DRM to, an attack on it/its-contents."

I guess, but it just seems like someone hiding in a closet claiming concealment because you can't see them, not because you don't know where they are at.

 

[Faded 8-1]

I can see it. Makes sense that in close combat, when you actually have to burst through the door and go inside that not seeing them would be a substantial disadvantage. Could be someone up against the wall to either side just inside the entry, could be a dude crouched behind a crate with a Thompson or MP trained on the door, etc. I wouldn't want to be first man through the door.

 

[Faded 8-1]

Best way to do it is Steve McQueen style. Gotta have a hero with a DC though.

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(that's just the final battle scene, despite them showing the opening title screen at the start of the clip. underrated war movie, btw. great flick, and one of the best war movie endings of all time IMO. which is saying a lot - there's a lot of good ones. I may have even shed a tear or two the first time I saw it - don't tell anybody.)

 

[BraveDave]

Best way to do it is Steve McQueen style. Gotta have a hero with a DC though.

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(that's just the final battle scene, despite them showing the opening title screen at the start of the clip. underrated war movie, btw. great flick, and one of the best war movie endings of all time IMO. which is saying a lot - there's a lot of good ones. I may have even shed a tear or two the first time I saw it - don't tell anybody.)

Love it! Didn't know the Americans had DC Hero's? What happened, the "arsenal of democracy" run out of tanks!? I vote for Saving Private Ryan or Greyhound and Kelly's Heroes for comedic relief.

 

[BraveDave]

I can see it. Makes sense that in close combat, when you actually have to burst through the door and go inside that not seeing them would be a substantial disadvantage. Could be someone up against the wall to either side just inside the entry, could be a dude crouched behind a crate with a Thompson or MP trained on the door, etc. I wouldn't want to be first man through the door.

Never been in a bunker THAT big, but just how do the occupants "ambush" someone outside if they win the dr?

 

[Faded 8-1]

What happened, the "arsenal of democracy" run out of tanks!?

It's mentioned in the scene that the armor support got hung up on the dragonteeth. It's supposed to be the Siegfried line (despite looking suspiciously like the hills of California).

 

[Faded 8-1]

Never been in a bunker THAT big, but just how do the occupants "ambush" someone outside if they win the dr?

Dunno man, I'm just spitballing really. I haven't stormed any bunkers IRL. Maybe it's a walk in the park for all I know.

 

[bendizoid]

Never been in a bunker THAT big, but just how do the occupants "ambush" someone outside if they win the dr?

Maybe a quick hand grenade or a few well placed ‘karate chops’.

 

[Faded 8-1]

Toss out a pack of cyanide-laced Lucky Strikes.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Have got to agree and Bob Newhart is a hoot in there as well (as usual).

Love it! Didn't know the Americans had DC Hero's? What happened, the "arsenal of democracy" run out of tanks!? I vote for Saving Private Ryan or Greyhound and Kelly's Heroes for comedic relief.

Hey! The had their own "Tank" support provided by Bob Newhart's jeep.

 

[Stewart]

Does the vehicle modifier apply in Ambushing a Pillbox?

 

[bendizoid]

Maybe a quick hand grenade or a few well placed ‘karate chops’.

Here’s a training film on how to conduct a proper hand-to-hand combat ambush:

 

[Chas]

No disrespect intended, but going with the assumption that BraveDave was not in the Army and never trained to assault a pillbox/bunker.
First, the ASL situation is not that the attackers are bursting inside the PB, it is outside vs inside.
You may know a position is there but have no idea on adjacent positions, where the firing port or ports are. Unfortunately people get the wrong idea from watching movies.
Anyway, the occupants of a PB having a chance to Ambush the attackers is very realistic. The attackers could maneuver right into the kill zone of a firing port at less than 40 meters and have no idea. The occupants could also get a grenade(s) out first.
Although it is much more likely that the attackers would be able to Ambush the PB, the vice versa is very possible. The fact the occupants have concealment would be a game mechanic that the actual firing port or whatever is unknown to the attackers.

 

[BraveDave]

Here’s a training film on how to conduct a proper hand-to-hand combat ambush:

I remember this one when I was in basic training. Very helpful

 

[BraveDave]

No disrespect intended, but going with the assumption that BraveDave was not in the Army and never trained to assault a pillbox/bunker.
First, the ASL situation is not that the attackers are bursting inside the PB, it is outside vs inside.
You may know a position is there but have no idea on adjacent positions, where the firing port or ports are. Unfortunately people get the wrong idea from watching movies.
Anyway, the occupants of a PB having a chance to Ambush the attackers is very realistic. The attackers could maneuver right into the kill zone of a firing port at less than 40 meters and have no idea. The occupants could also get a grenade(s) out first.
Although it is much more likely that the attackers would be able to Ambush the PB, the vice versa is very possible. The fact the occupants have concealment would be a game mechanic that the actual firing port or whatever is unknown to the attackers.

Agreed if the PB is HIP as in PTO, but on a paved road or runway or other OG? Seems a stretch. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify whether the Q&A I quoted might affect their concealment status and I guess the answer is no. Thanks for all the responses. It's been fun.

 

[Chas]

Yeah, I am visualizing a PB in woods or brush. Gotcha, seems stranger if in obvious open ground.
From a rules perspective the game mechanics dont change, which is good. Note that in a non-PTO scenario the occupants will rarely Ambush with the PB drm +2. Additionally if in OG like that most likely will still not be concealed by the time an attacker goes in. But if so, attacker goes in knowing the risk.

 

[bendizoid]

I guess, but it just seems like someone hiding in a closet claiming concealment because you can't see them, not because you don't know where they are at.

might want to reread C 30.7, it says they don’t get the benefit of concealment, once they fire, only in so much as you can’t inspect the contents. That sounds reasonable.

 

[BraveDave]

Yeah, I am visualizing a PB in woods or brush. Gotcha, seems stranger if in obvious open ground.
From a rules perspective the game mechanics dont change, which is good. Note that in a non-PTO scenario the occupants will rarely Ambush with the PB drm +2. Additionally if in OG like that most likely will still not be concealed by the time an attacker goes in. But if so, attacker goes in knowing the risk.

Yeah, 99.9% of the time concealment is a moot point. But I had a situation where it might have come into play.