LOS String and firing

Eagle4ty

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It has been my practice that one declares a shot and along with announcing any special ammunition to be used if applicable; rolling the dice; and if failing to have special ammo no LOS string is drawn. However, A6.11 doesn't seem to support that position. In conversation with my opponent, I believe he has a point in checking the LOS after the shot declaration and before rolling for any special ammo availability. Is this a legal cheat of the system for checking LOS that I have just been too tough on myself about? I really don't want to give him some bad info if the majority of players allow this as a legal "cheat" of the system.
 

Ralph Malf

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Good question! Off the top of my head I'd say you were too tough on yourself. The shot could result in Ammo Depletion, Ammo Shortage, or outright MA Malfunction, so it isn't a totally free LOS check.
 

George Kelln

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How I play it is:

  1. Target type is declared (Infantry, Vehicle, or Area),
  2. Ammo type is declared (HE, AP, Smoke, Special Ammo, etc.),
  3. Dice are rolled
  4. If DR was > Depletion # (no shot was taken)
  5. If shot was taken, determine if LOS is clear and if a hit was achieve.

C8.9 DEPLETION NUMBERS: The number following each special ammunition symbol is a Depletion Number which defines its availability to the firer. This Depletion Number is applicable if the firer announces his intention to use Special Ammunition prior to a To Hit DR. If that Original To Hit DR is < the Depletion Number, the firer uses that ammunition to resolve the effect of any hit it achieved with that DR. If that Original To Hit DR equals the Depletion Number, the firer uses that ammunition to resolve the effect of any hit it achieved with that DR, but the firer runs out of that Special Ammunition in the process and may not use it again for the remainder of the scenario. If that Original To Hit DR is > the Depletion Number, the firer had no such ammunition and is considered not to have fired yet for any purpose unless Gun Malfunction or Low Ammo (D3.71) occurs. The firer is free to fire again (unless it malfunctioned) with other ammunition at the same or different target with a new To Hit DR or refrain from firing altogether and instead move. The Gun may not use that special ammunition again in that scenario. Depletion Numbers do not apply to OBA or Vehicular Smoke Dispensers.
 

Wayne

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eASLRB said:
A6.11 LOS CHECKS: Before setup, LOS may be checked only by the side setting up first, and only if that side is the Scenario Defender, or has Pre-Registered Fire (C1.73) or Bore-Sighted weapons (C6.41-.42). During play, neither player may make potential LOS checks to determine if a LOS exists for an attack until after that attack has been declared [EXC: Concealment Removal (12.14), Road entry cost (4.132)]. Should the LOS check for an attack reveal a blocked LOS, the units which were to have made the attack are still considered to have fired for all purposes (they thought they saw something); that fire would not generate DM status nor affect units in the obstacle that blocked the LOS, although a DR must still be made to check for possible Random Events and the retention of any Multiple ROF.
...where Random Events include possible loss of special ammo.

There's Q&A though:
Q&A said:
A6.11, A12.34, & C8.9

An HIP gun declares that it will attack an enemy tank with APCR. The tank’s owner requests that LOS be checked. The line of sight is blocked, triggering A6.11. The subsequent DR is then made, and it is greater than the special ammo number, triggering C8.9. We were uncertain whether A6.11 wins, because it is triggered first; whether C8.9 wins because it is triggered first; whether C8.9 wins because of higher-numbered-rule-precedence, or something else.

A. DR to check for special ammunition first. If DR > Depletion #, “the firer had no such ammunition and is considered not to have fired yet for any purpose unless Gun Malfunction or Low Ammo occurs. ”
So,
* declare special ammo,
* roll for hit/effects, including possible Bad Stuff (including possible loss of special ammo)
* if that special ammo was available for that shot then
* check questionable LOS

Otherwise, no LOS check is allowed re that shot.

[On the upside, per the Q&A, such a "shot" could not trigger a Sniper, say, since the weapon has not fired except for possible Malf and Low Ammo (those being the only possible Bad Stuff in the case of a no-shot owing to special ammo depletion).]
 
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Eagle4ty

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...where Random Events include possible loss of special ammo.

There's Q&A though:


So,
* declare special ammo,
* roll for effects, including possible Bad Stuff (including possible loss of special ammo)
* if that special ammo was available for that shot then
* check questionable LOS

Otherwise, no LOS check is allowed re that shot.

[On the upside, per the Q&A, such a "shot" could not trigger a Sniper, say, since the weapon has not fired except for possible Malf and Low Ammo (those being the only possible Bad Stuff in the case of a no-shot owing to special ammo depletion).]
Yup, that's how I had played it for years. However, the Q&A you posted doesn't really address if a LOS string could be implemented on the shot declaration (I looked at that Q&A prior to posting as well). All that has to be accomplished per the rule is to declare the shot. I'll try to stick to my guns on this (to only check LOS if the shot is actually taken - i.e.: special ammo was retained) but unsure it will stand up.
 

Stewart

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3.1 Firing ordnance is always a one- or two-step process. First the firer
must determine if he has hit the target; if he has, he must then determine
the effect(s), if any, of that hit.
 

Jwil2020

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Interesting thread. Until now, I assumed the LOS mechanic for TH ordnance (whether special ammo or not) was the same as it seems A6.11 describes for MMC IFP or SW i.e.:

  1. Firing player declares shot. (SW? MMC? Leader directed? all three, etc.?).
  2. LOS is then checked (if questionable).
  3. If good, make DR, apply IFT results (if any).
  4. If blocked, make DR to check for possible B#, then mark the firing unit(s) with the appropriate fire counter.
Is this order correct?
 

Eagle4ty

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3.1 Firing ordnance is always a one- or two-step process. First the firer
must determine if he has hit the target; if he has, he must then determine
the effect(s), if any, of that hit.
In some instances, it's a three-step process though:
  1. Declare the shot (including ammo/target type to be used).
  2. Roll the dice to determine if special ammo is available (debatable on technique/sequence of application as discussed above).
  3. Determine the effects if any of that shot (to include LOS as I see it).
The process to include the sequence of when to string the LOS is the salient question here, not how to resolve a shot if a hit was obtained. A6.11 seems to imply that one needs only to declare the shot to string the LOS but common practice would seem to indicate that one must first ensure a shot was taken to string the LOS (with some disagreement on that application as noted). Try to follow along with the discussion.
 

Jwil2020

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A6.11 seems to imply that one needs only to declare the shot to string the LOS
IMO, you have identified the key question. A6.11 seems to imply that the sequence of events is Declare Attack then Check LOS then Make Attack DR (whether to resolve a TH/IFT attack, or to verify if weapon survived its B/X# in the case of blocked LOS).

The quoted Q&A obviously contradicts this sequence. Also, it does not answer the question of whether or not a LOS check is made. Although, as Klas points out, it is an assumed 'no' since no shot ever occurred.

Curious to find out the final answer.
 
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