Reaction Fire. And Pinning.

Doug Leslie

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I wonder which one you’re suppose to do first ? It could make a difference on the leader creation dr if the unit goes to a 8 or 7 ML on the HOB.
The leader creation dr is done first since DRM are based on morale at the time of the original CC DR.

“18.2 A18.2 Leader Creation The quality of leader created is based on a dr on the Leader Creation Table plus any cumulative drm for nationality, unit type, and status (including the Morale Level of the unit at the time of the Original 2 DR).”

Any leader created can participate in the CC attack.

The NMC consequences (and any HOB result) only take place after the FPF attack is resolved.

“A8.31…Immediately after normally resolving the FPF attack vs the moving units, the firer's Original IFT DR is modified only by any applicable leadership DRM and is used as a NMC against the firing unit(s) using FPF (including any directing leader)…”
 
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Tim Niesen

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For an example, before I shut down the last scenario because of an error by Steve...I drove three German tanks off the board and two more Mark 3 were following almost off the board. In his defense, it was past three AM, and suddenly ten minutes later he announced that there had been a roadblock there!? And I could not remember exactly where my five tanks had started! On the other side of the board, I was anticipating for his next turn a Reaction Fire attack by my German 467 against a French S35 with my street fighting advantage. His tank was stopped on board 49 CC 9. My 467 with an ATR in hex CC8. His tank had killed one of my Mark 4s on AA7. I also had 467 squads on AA8 and AA9. What are his choices? He also had an immbolized S35 in AA10. How many Reaction Fire may I take depending upon his choices? Do I get to first Reaction Fire when he starts up? I assume that he is moving at this point, so he qualifies for a minus 2 immediately. Right? If backs over the wall in Reverse how many movement points will he expend? More likely he will turn, expending another MP (subsequent first fire.) I don't think that I can use subsequent first fire (with my ATR) against if his tank jumps across the wall on the hexside between CC9 and CC10. Am I missing anything? If someone wants to set this up to make my question more visual that would be nice. Tim
 

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For an example, before I shut down the last scenario because of an error by Steve...I drove three German tanks off the board and two more Mark 3 were following almost off the board. In his defense, it was past three AM, and suddenly ten minutes later he announced that there had been a roadblock there!? And I could not remember exactly where my five tanks had started! On the other side of the board, I was anticipating for his next turn a Reaction Fire attack by my German 467 against a French S35 with my street fighting advantage. His tank was stopped on board 49 CC 9. My 467 with an ATR in hex CC8. His tank had killed one of my Mark 4s on AA7. I also had 467 squads on AA8 and AA9. What are his choices? He also had an immbolized S35 in AA10. How many Reaction Fire may I take depending upon his choices? Do I get to first Reaction Fire when he starts up? I assume that he is moving at this point, so he qualifies for a minus 2 immediately. Right? If backs over the wall in Reverse how many movement points will he expend? More likely he will turn, expending another MP (subsequent first fire.) I don't think that I can use subsequent first fire (with my ATR) against if his tank jumps across the wall on the hexside between CC9 and CC10. Am I missing anything? If someone wants to set this up to make my question more visual that would be nice. Tim
That's what A.2 is there for.
 

Doug Leslie

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For an example, before I shut down the last scenario because of an error by Steve...I drove three German tanks off the board and two more Mark 3 were following almost off the board. In his defense, it was past three AM, and suddenly ten minutes later he announced that there had been a roadblock there!? And I could not remember exactly where my five tanks had started! On the other side of the board, I was anticipating for his next turn a Reaction Fire attack by my German 467 against a French S35 with my street fighting advantage. His tank was stopped on board 49 CC 9. My 467 with an ATR in hex CC8. His tank had killed one of my Mark 4s on AA7. I also had 467 squads on AA8 and AA9. What are his choices? He also had an immbolized S35 in AA10. How many Reaction Fire may I take depending upon his choices? Do I get to first Reaction Fire when he starts up? I assume that he is moving at this point, so he qualifies for a minus 2 immediately. Right? If backs over the wall in Reverse how many movement points will he expend? More likely he will turn, expending another MP (subsequent first fire.) I don't think that I can use subsequent first fire (with my ATR) against if his tank jumps across the wall on the hexside between CC9 and CC10. Am I missing anything? If someone wants to set this up to make my question more visual that would be nice. Tim
Am I right in thinking from a comment on a different thread that you are trying to play without your own rulebook? If so, I can only recommend that you invest in the EASLRB which can answer many of the questions that you are posing. This forum is really intended to clarify rules as opposed to saying what they actually are. I would also recommend that you download VASL so that you can produce diagrams if you are seeking help with a particular situation. Having said this, I have attempted to recreate the situation that you describe.

22751

My first comment is that, in my view (with which others might disagree), the squad with the ATR does not qualify for street fighting advantage. For further clarification, I would recommend that you read this thread:


Leaving this aside, let's assume that street fighting does apply. When the S35 expends a MP to start, it becomes "non-stopped". Therefore, the +2 DRM for a "motion/non-stopped" vehicle will apply to any CC reaction fire attack. If, instead of or in addition to, attempting a CC reaction fire attack, the 467 decided to fire its ATR, the S35 would not qualify for Case J since (per C.8) it is not yet a moving target due to its not having entered a new hex in its turn. Case L (point blank fire) would however be negated since it is now non-stopped.

If the S35 chooses to reverse over the wall, it will cost it 9 MP to do so (1 to start plus 2 to cross the wall and enter open ground multiplied by 4 for reversing).

When using street fighting, CC reaction fire is only possible if the unit making the attack and/or its SW is not marked with a first fire counter. Therefore it can only CC reaction fire once unless the AFV then enters its hex.

Provided that the 467 has not used subsequent first fire, the ATR can be fired upon further MP expenditure by the S35 or later at a different target.
 
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Tim Niesen

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Thanks, Great analysis. Does the tank had to directly between two buildings for the infantry to qualify for street fighting advantage? Here the tank is on a road between two building, which do not fit that discription. Tim
 

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Thanks, Great analysis. Does the tank had to directly between two buildings for the infantry to qualify for street fighting advantage? Here the tank is on a road between two building, which do not fit that discription. Tim
What do the rulz say?
 

Doug Leslie

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Thanks, Great analysis. Does the tank had to directly between two buildings for the infantry to qualify for street fighting advantage? Here the tank is on a road between two building, which do not fit that discription. Tim

The problem with CC9 is that the road ends there. My view is that it falls into the same category as the "Perry Sez" below.

22757

Street fighting would apply if the attacking units were in F8 or M8. If the road extended to F7 or M7, a vehicle would be susceptible to street fighting in G8 from a unit in G7.

Since the reasoning behind the Perry Sez isn't given, my rule of thumb (which is not spelt out in the rules) is that street fighting applies if buildings are adjacent to the road, within two hexes of each other and a unit moving from one building to the other would be unable to do so in two movement "impulses" without crossing the road.

In your position, a squad could move from CC8 to DD9 through DD8 without crossing the road so, using my rule of thumb, there is no street fighting.
 

von Marwitz

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Am I right in thinking from a comment on a different thread that you are trying to play without your own rulebook? If so, I can only recommend that you invest in the EASLRB which can answer many of the questions that you are posing.
22758

Approximate number of times that this has been proposed to him...

von Marwitz
 

Wayne

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I wonder which one you’re suppose to do first ?
Leader Creation precedes HOB morale change
eASLRB said:
18.12 CCPh: Anytime a MMC attacking in CC rolls an Original 2 DR, the player makes an immediate dr on the Leader Creation Table. If this results in the creation of a leader, that leader must add his leadership to the Original 2 CC DR that created him (even if the modifier is a +1), and possibly changing its odds due to his one Inherent FP. Unless one or both sides Withdraw due to Infiltration (11.22), both attacks are re-figured using both of the originally- rolled Original DRs and the new leader’s FP/Leadership just as if he had been there all along.
A18.2 The quality of leader created is based on a dr on the Leader Creation Table plus any cumulative drm for nationality, unit type, and status (including the Morale Level of the unit at the time of the Original 2 DR). ...
[Though A18.2 is labeled CCPh is applies "Anytime a MMC [is] attacking in CC" -- A18.2, 1st sentence.]
 

bendizoid

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Am I right in thinking from a comment on a different thread that you are trying to play without your own rulebook? If so, I can only recommend that you invest in the EASLRB which can answer many of the questions that you are posing. This forum is really intended to clarify rules as opposed to saying what they actually are. I would also recommend that you download VASL so that you can produce diagrams if you are seeking help with a particular situation. Having said this, I have attempted to recreate the situation that you describe.

View attachment 22751

My first comment is that, in my view (with which others might disagree), the squad with the ATR does not qualify for street fighting advantage. For further clarification, I would recommend that you read this thread:


Leaving this aside, let's assume that street fighting does apply. When the S35 expends a MP to start, it becomes "non-stopped". Therefore, the +2 DRM for a "motion/non-stopped" vehicle will apply to any CC reaction fire attack. If, instead of or in addition to, attempting a CC reaction fire attack, the 467 decided to fire its ATR, the S35 would not qualify for Case J since (per C.8) it is not yet a moving target due to its not having entered a new hex in its turn. Case L (point blank fire) would however be negated since it is now non-stopped.

If the S35 chooses to reverse over the wall, it will cost it 9 MP to do so (1 to start plus 2 to cross the wall and enter open ground multiplied by 4 for reversing).

When using street fighting, CC reaction fire is only possible if the unit making the attack and/or its SW is not marked with a first fire counter. Therefore it can only CC reaction fire once unless the AFV then enters its hex.

Provided that the 467 has not used subsequent first fire, the ATR can be fired upon further MP expenditure by the S35 or later at a different target.
My understanding is his rulebook is up in the attic somewhere but he doesn’t want to look, Probably too many spider webs.
I think it’s high time Don2 steps up and takes care of the situation.
 
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Tim Niesen

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Went into attic to locate the rulebook. I could not find them. Embarrassing when Don 2 came to play in the wake of Historicon. We set up the classic revised KP scenario from the Japanese second edition. Don 1, Steve, and I want to combine to purchase the rules. Don 1 is tired of me complaining that the rules are locked in the attic. Now Steve finds that they are out of print. (I swear that I saw otherwise two weeks ago.) Steve has somehow lost several critical charts to his own rules. We are a mess. Even a worse issue than the rules for me is other elements of my games are gone (all prep fire counters, most DM counters), likely lost on the way back from Don 1's house. Sad. Replacing all the nationality guns and ordinance pages are an expensive proposition, far more cost than the rules. I do have the French and the Japanese notes, however, having bought those modules in the last few years. The basic counters lost can be made up by a purchase of Beyond Valor, which I intend to do. Tim
 

hongkongwargamer

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Don 1, Steve, and I want to combine to purchase the rules.

Steve has somehow lost several critical charts to his own rules.
https://mmpgamers.com/asl-pocket-charts-p-352 or

Replacing all the nationality guns and ordinance pages are an expensive proposition, far more cost than the rules.
 

Jwil2020

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And all three “Pocket” books can be purchased as a bundle for $95… less than the cost of the OOP ASLRB.

IMHO, this game is challenging enough WITH the rules handy. I can’t imagine playing it without them.
 
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nekengren2

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if the squad passes it’s pin check and survives the overrun it could make 5 attacks against the tank.........
So if the squad is PINNED by the PAATC..................
It can't DFF or SFF but..............
It MUST FPP per 7.212 FPF CC REACTION FIRE
Can the PINNED squad do several more FPP?
 

Tim Niesen

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Indeed, Steve just suggested buying the paperback version. I rejected the idea because my poor eyesight. Don 2 likes the relatively new chart books. I know nothing of them. Once the heat comes down I need to reenter the attic for a third time. When Don 2 came on the Sunday after Historicon, the temperature must have been at least 115 F degrees. I stayed there for about a 45 minutes looking for my rules, while he set up his Japanese defences of KP?. Great scenario! I was sweating like a pig. The last time I did locate and retrieve all of my boards. Hot but not that hot! That was after Steve bought the Canadian company French compilation of ten French German scenarios from 1940. Great work, but the scenarios often require multiple boards. Still no rules after searching in basement. No luck, but a found a large stash of sports cards. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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Yes. I admit that Don 1's mansion and bone doctoring are imaginary. And Don 2's role in the US Army and the Fort P. in New Jersey is a figment of my imagination. His role in the evaluation of the revised Tobruk game (Which was always his favorite Avalon Hill game, and a game he considers more realistic than the armor in ASL. Although he has now corrected the errors in the armor of the tanks and penetration values of the guns in the original game.) And Dr. Norman Friedman did not write the introduction to his revised second edition of his book on the history of ballistics! All this is imaginary. Tim
 

bendizoid

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Went into attic to locate the rulebook. I could not find them. Embarrassing when Don 2 came to play in the wake of Historicon. We set up the classic revised KP scenario from the Japanese second edition. Don 1, Steve, and I want to combine to purchase the rules. Don 1 is tired of me complaining that the rules are locked in the attic. Now Steve finds that they are out of print. (I swear that I saw otherwise two weeks ago.) Steve has somehow lost several critical charts to his own rules. We are a mess. Even a worse issue than the rules for me is other elements of my games are gone (all prep fire counters, most DM counters), likely lost on the way back from Don 1's house. Sad. Replacing all the nationality guns and ordinance pages are an expensive proposition, far more cost than the rules. I do have the French and the Japanese notes, however, having bought those modules in the last few years. The basic counters lost can be made up by a purchase of Beyond Valor, which I intend to do. Tim
You can go a buy Ritterkrieg counters, they have bigger numbers to see easier. Might be the way to go.
 
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