Infantry leaders modifier and Ordnance

[VonHutier]

Regarding the above- I understand that leaders may apply their modifiers to Ordnance SW, but not to 5/8" Ordnance...however, my regular oppo thinks otherwise - am I right ?

 

[WuWei]

A7.531 allows a leader to use the leadership DRM to modify the IFT DR and the TH DR of ordnance SW. If there isn't another rule (and there might be, this is ASL after all, but I don't know of any), he can't modify TH DRs of guns.

But re-reading the rules I start thinking: Can a leader direct IFE attacks of guns?

 

[PresterJohn]

I have been thoroughly "educated" in the principle that SW are by definition only half inch counters. And leaders can only apply modifiers to SW attacks/TH DR as per 7.531.

 

[PresterJohn]

And C2.29 precludes the use of non-armour leaders for IFE attacks.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Regarding the above- I understand that leaders may apply their modifiers to Ordnance SW, but not to 5/8" Ordnance...however, my regular oppo thinks otherwise - am I right ?

You are right.
In such a case, require your opponent to find the point of rule which allows infantry leaders to apply their modifier to a Gun TH DR.

 

[VonHutier]

Thanks for your replies guys, thought I was right

 

[Actionjick]

You are right.
In such a case, require your opponent to find the point of rule which allows infantry leaders to apply their modifier to a Gun TH DR.

I like a previous post where the players set a time limit for rules questions. Write it down and check in depth when it isn't gunnin time.

 

[EagleIV]

There are a few scenarios where by SSR Infantry leaders can direct the fire of Guns, but as has been pointed out with such an SSR Infantry leaders can only direct SW Ordnance.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I recall having read about a situation in Normandy where a German infantry officer threatened a crew of an AA 88 Gun, so that they fired on Allied tanks with it.
There can be some possibility to craft an SSR to cover that type of situations.

One could also try to depict veteran, experienced crews by giving them a negative TH DRM (or inexperienced crews with a positive TH DRM) : the system does that for vehicular Guns.

 

[Actionjick]

It does seem odd that there aren't gun Leaders.

 

[von Marwitz]

I have been thoroughly "educated" in the principle that SW are by definition only half inch counters. And leaders can only apply modifiers to SW attacks/TH DR as per 7.531.

I think I have forgotten about this possibility, so this is a welcome reminder.

In many cases, SW MTRs seem not to be worth to be directed by Leaders. But especially for the 60mm variant, having their ROF in mind and - more importantly - their attacking on the 4FP column, it is worth to consider this option.

von Marwitz

 

[Robin Reeve]

Directing a LATW shot has a lot of merits, too.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

C2.29 says a non-armor leader may not direct IFE [EXC: D6.65]. I'm not sure how D6.65 would apply though. IFE can't be part of a multi-unit FG (C2.29). Also D6.64 prohibits IFE from being part of a FG. A Passenger Infantry leader in a halftrack can't direct the fire of only the halftrack's IFE, since D6.65 says if can "direct the fire of other Passengers in that halftrack (including their use as a FG)". If there are no other Passengers firing, it seems the Infantry leader can't direct. And if other Passengers fire, they can't FG with IFE.

Looking through the errata, Journal 7 deleted "[EXC: as per D6.64]" in lines 9-10 of C2.29. Before then, a halftrack with IFE could FG, then a Passenger leader could direct the FG.

 

[Wayne]

EDIT: Never mind

C2.29 says a non-armor leader may not direct IFE [EXC: D6.65]. I'm not sure how D6.65 would apply though. ...

Looking through the errata, Journal 7 deleted "[EXC: as per D6.64]" in lines 9-10 of C2.29. Before then, a halftrack with IFE could FG, then a Passenger leader could direct the FG.

I believe ht IFE weapons may be p/o a FG and be directed by a non-armor Leader.

D6.64 FG: ... vehicles ... must be CE and using its vehicular-mounted non-ordnance weapon(s) [EXC: FT, IFE] to qualify for that FG ...
D6.65 LEADERSHIP: The leadership modifier of any CE (or otherwise exposed to fire) leader Passenger may be used to direct the fire of other Passengers in that halftrack (including their use as a FG). ... Likewise, a CE (or exposed) Armor Leader can direct the fire of his Passengers/other nearby units only if their FP is added to the non-ordnance FP of his halftrack to form a FG ...

For both the cited Passenger Leader and (later) the Armor Leader, D6.65 "inherits" from D6.64 the "[EXC: FT, IFE]" so, providing all the corner case provisions are satisfied, either a Passenger Leader or an Armor Leader can direct a D6.64 FG (which may include a vehicular IFE weapon).

 

[Eagle4ty]

A Passenger Leader was never allowed to direct an IFE unit per A10.7 (...An unbroken Personnel leader may use its leadership rating to affect the performance of other Personnel in its Location...).

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I don't see how you came to that conclusion @Wayne. Have I missed something? As I read things, C2.29 says a Gun using IFE "may not form/participate-in a multi-unit FG". D6.64 has "The only vehicles ... that may be part of a multi-unit FG are Carriers/armored halftracks, each of which must be CE and using its vehicular-mounted non-ordnance weapon(s) [EXC: FT, IFE] to qualify for that FG; such a FG may be composed of such Carriers/halftracks and/or Infantry/Cavalry." That says non-ordnance weapons on CE Carriers/armored hts, but not FT and IFE, may be part of a FG. To reinforce this interpretation, Hatten In Flames has a SSR, "HF11 GERMAN AA HALFTRACKS: Contrary to D6.64, SPW 251/21 halftracks using IFE (C2.29) may participate in multi-unit Fire Groups (A7.5)."

D6.65 allows a Passenger leader to direct fire of other Passengers including any FG they are part of. It doesn't allow a leader to direct fire of only non-Passengers.

D3.44 says an Armor Leader could modify the IFT DR of its vehicle's MA using IFE (but not if non-MA weapons are added to the FG). D3.4 says an AL or IL could direct certain FGs, but it doesn't mention what may be used so it doesn't affect any restrictions/inclusions in other rules. D6.64 refines that by stating which weapons may be part of such a FG.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I notice that C2.29 was quite substantially re-written in the 2nd Edition....one thing that was added was the EXC that was later removed with the J7 errata....

 

[Wayne]

EDIT: Never mind.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion @Wayne. Have I missed something? As I read things, C2.29 says a Gun using IFE "may not form/participate-in a multi-unit FG". D6.64 has "The only vehicles ... that may be part of a multi-unit FG are Carriers/armored halftracks, each of which must be CE and using its vehicular-mounted non-ordnance weapon(s) [EXC: FT, IFE] to qualify for that FG

The way I diagram that tangled sentence, [EXC: FT, IFE] modifies using its vehicular-mounted non-ordnance weapon(s) to mean those (i.e., FT and IFE) ordnance weapons may be used as though non-ordnance, in this case. IOW, FT/IFE are an exception to (ordnance) weapons generally excluded.

What other reason for that EXC?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

This old official Q&A makes the intention of the EXC clear...

D6.64 May a halftrack- or carrier-mounted FT/IFE FP be part of a FG?
A. No. After "vehicular mounted non-ordnance weapon(s)" add "[EXC: FT; IFE]".
[An92; An95w]

 

[von Marwitz]

This old official Q&A makes the intention of the EXC clear...

D6.64 May a halftrack- or carrier-mounted FT/IFE FP be part of a FG?
A. No. After "vehicular mounted non-ordnance weapon(s)" add "[EXC: FT; IFE]".
[An92; An95w]

That is how I have always played it.

Imagine a "Meat Chopper" US ht led by 9-2 if it were otherwise...
Of course, if you'd ever get this combo together, they'd roll boxcars for sure, but just sayin'.

von Marwitz