CA change in enemy MPh

Doug Leslie

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In the above diagram, the Sherman has malfunctioned its MA and the Mk IV moves in for the kill by entering and stopping in G6. The Sherman wants to change CA to face the enemy with its frontal AF and can use its MG armament to do so. If it spins its VCA one hexspine counterclockwise to G6/H6 to fire its BMG, can it simultaneously rotate its CMG to coincide with the VCA without firing it?
 
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Doug Leslie

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NRBH, but I don’t think so.
Neither do I, but I thought that I would check. To make the TCA match the VCA and keep the option of a second VCA change if the Mk IV changes location, I think that the Sherman needs to fire its CMG first (spin the VCA one hex spine and then the CMG two hex spines for a total DRM of +5 (excluding BU penalty). This means that the Mk IV could declare and win a gun duel though. Probably better just to spin the VCA and chance the side hit on the TCA.
 

ScottRomanowski

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I don't think so either. D3.12 says "The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA..." (and see also the D3.51 EX, second paragraph for the VCA + TCA change when firing a turret-mounted weapon), although the VCA can change when firing a turret-mounted weapon (D3.12 again) "However, whenever a vehicle fires a turret-mounted weapon outside its VCA (To Hit Case A), the VCA is not changed (unless the vehicle uses the NT DRM application of Case A)."

The Sherman could also make a Motion attempt and, if successful, change VCA and TCA (D2.401), which might be the better option
 

Doug Leslie

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I don't think so either. D3.12 says "The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA..." (and see also the D3.51 EX, second paragraph for the VCA + TCA change when firing a turret-mounted weapon), although the VCA can change when firing a turret-mounted weapon (D3.12 again) "However, whenever a vehicle fires a turret-mounted weapon outside its VCA (To Hit Case A), the VCA is not changed (unless the vehicle uses the NT DRM application of Case A)."

The Sherman could also make a Motion attempt and, if successful, change VCA and TCA (D2.401), which might be the better option
Not if the Mk IV was in its LOS throughout its movement prior to pulling up in the adjacent hex. Smoke mortar is another option though.
 

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One thing it could do (could have done) is the declare the CMG (turning VCA/TCA) before the PzIV expended a Stop MP. Then, even if the PzIV wins a Gun Duel, it will at least be harder for it to hit. But it really depends on how many MP the Pz IV have left when it pulled up adjacent.
 

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Neither do I, but I thought that I would check. To make the TCA match the VCA and keep the option of a second VCA change if the Mk IV changes location, I think that the Sherman needs to fire its CMG first (spin the VCA one hex spine and then the CMG two hex spines for a total DRM of +5 (excluding BU penalty). This means that the Mk IV could declare and win a gun duel though. Probably better just to spin the VCA and chance the side hit on the TCA.
I'm not sure it is allowed in this case to align VCA w/TCA unless using both a turret- and a bow-mounted MG.

You can so-align, in this case, but doing so leaves no weapon unused, so, no "option of a second VCA change if the Mk IV changes location."
 

Doug Leslie

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I'm not sure it is allowed in this case to align VCA w/TCA unless using both a turret- and a bow-mounted MG.

You can so-align, in this case, but doing so leaves no weapon unused, so, no "option of a second VCA change if the Mk IV changes location."
I think that is right. D3.12 doesn’t seem to provide for a combined VCA/TCA change if only one weapon is being fired.
 

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I think that is right. D3.12 doesn’t seem to provide for a combined VCA/TCA change if only one weapon is being fired.
It seems a little ambiguous, D3.12 does say:

However, whenever a vehicle fires a turret-mounted weapon outside its VCA (To Hit Case A), the VCA is not changed (unless the vehicle uses the NT DRM application of Case A).

And then in D3.51:

If the VCA is changed, the TCA changes the same number of hexspines while retaining its position relative to the VCA. Any further changes of the TCA incurs normal TCA Case A DRM in addition to the NT Case A DRM of the VCA change

Putting those two together does make it sound like a single CMG shot can align the VCA and TCA by first turning the VCA and then the TCA.

But what if the target is already in the TCA while outside the VCA? Would seem a little weird to be able to use the CMG to align the VCA if it could already shoot within the TCA.

I’ve not found a definitive answer in some searching. This actually just came up in my last game. Target was outside both the TCA and VCA but the turrent didn’t start pointed forward. We allowed use of the CMG to first rotate VCA and then rotate the TCA the rest of the way to get front armor facing the target. Was that right?
 

Doug Leslie

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It seems a little ambiguous, D3.12 does say:

However, whenever a vehicle fires a turret-mounted weapon outside its VCA (To Hit Case A), the VCA is not changed (unless the vehicle uses the NT DRM application of Case A).

And then in D3.51:

If the VCA is changed, the TCA changes the same number of hexspines while retaining its position relative to the VCA. Any further changes of the TCA incurs normal TCA Case A DRM in addition to the NT Case A DRM of the VCA change

Putting those two together does make it sound like a single CMG shot can align the VCA and TCA by first turning the VCA and then the TCA.

But what if the target is already in the TCA while outside the VCA? Would seem a little weird to be able to use the CMG to align the VCA if it could already shoot within the TCA.

I’ve not found a definitive answer in some searching. This actually just came up in my last game. Target was outside both the TCA and VCA but the turrent didn’t start pointed forward. We allowed use of the CMG to first rotate VCA and then rotate the TCA the rest of the way to get front armor facing the target. Was that right?
I agree that it is difficult to parse D3.12 but I think that Wayne is correct. There is no issue if you intend to fire both turret and bow mounted weapons with the same shot at the same target. You can change VCA and TCA as required. The problem is whether you can spin TCA and VCA to fire just one weapon. In the situation that you describe, you can certainly change VCA to fire the CMG but my reading of D3.12 and D3.51 is that the TCA has to maintain its position relative to the VCA when you do so. I believe that D3.51 deals with the situation where the AFV changes VCA to take one shot with a bow mounted weapon and then changes TCA to fire a turret mounted weapon. It isn’t intended to permit a change of VCA and TCA for one shot by the same turret mounted weapon. The example given for D3.51 seems to support this when it talks about the CMG firing at the same target as the BMG.
 

DVexile

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The example given for D3.51 seems to support this when it talks about the CMG firing at the same target as the BMG.
The example isn't all that clear on the topic really, but I can certainly see your interpretation as valid amongst others. Still, in D3.12 we have:

The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA

The "and" that I highlighted with bold above seems significant. If we were only allowed to change the either the TCA or the VCA with a turret mounted shot that "and" should be an "or". The ASLRB seems very particular about its use of the words "and" and "or". It also even defines the / symbol in the index as "and/or" for clarity. Making the appropriate substitutions and removing the bow-mounted reference we'd get the rule for a turret-mounted weapon as:

The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current VCA

That would seem to indicate if a target is outside both the TCA and the VCA that you may change both at the same time (again that "and") rather than having to pick one or the other to change.

Again, I'm really not 100% on this one way or another but am just trying to figure out what the accepted interpretation of the rule is.
 

Doug Leslie

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The example isn't all that clear on the topic really, but I can certainly see your interpretation as valid amongst others. Still, in D3.12 we have:

The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA

The "and" that I highlighted with bold above seems significant. If we were only allowed to change the either the TCA or the VCA with a turret mounted shot that "and" should be an "or". The ASLRB seems very particular about its use of the words "and" and "or". It also even defines the / symbol in the index as "and/or" for clarity. Making the appropriate substitutions and removing the bow-mounted reference we'd get the rule for a turret-mounted weapon as:

The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current VCA

That would seem to indicate if a target is outside both the TCA and the VCA that you may change both at the same time (again that "and") rather than having to pick one or the other to change.

Again, I'm really not 100% on this one way or another but am just trying to figure out what the accepted interpretation of the rule is.
I think that the overriding principle is that you don't get to make free CA changes during the opponent's MPh unless you actually fire something (barring a successful motion attempt). If you change VCA without firing a bow mounted weapon whilst also changing TCA to fire a turret mounted weapon, you are violating that principle.
 

DVexile

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I think that the overriding principle is that you don't get to make free CA changes during the opponent's MPh unless you actually fire something (barring a successful motion attempt). If you change VCA without firing a bow mounted weapon whilst also changing TCA to fire a turret mounted weapon, you are violating that principle.
Why is changing the VCA and TCA simultaneously on a CMG shot getting something for free? The TCA always moves faster than the VCA. You agree a CMG shot could opt to change the VCA, if it has time to change the VCA it has time to change the TCA as well. Different controls operated by different members of the tank crew after all. Of course this all just down to game mechanics trying to deal with roughly modeling vehicles that are moving simultaneously in reality but move sequentially in the game, so really either interpretation is just as arbitrary or real…

Principles are nice, but in a rules dispute with another player doesn’t it come down to what the RB says and specifically COWTRA? It seems like the quoted sentence in D3.12 specifically allows a CMG shot to change the TCA and the VCA - not “or”. Where is the principle documented in the RB?

EDIT: And another thought. One tank has its VCA and TCA aligned and pointed away from an attacker. Another tank has its TCA pointed at an attacker but its VCA pointed away from the attacker. In the first case the defender can fire any one weapon (bow or turret) and get front armor pointed at the attacker. In the second case, the more prepared tank for the attacker, it must fire two weapons to achieve the same defense? That doesn't seem right... Again, perhaps just down to the limits of what practical game mechanics can achieve.
 
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ScottRomanowski

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D3.12 has "The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA...". I read that as the TCA can be changed and (i.e., and also) the VCA can be changed if you fire a turret-mounted weapon outside its current CA. The D3.51 example has many of examples of changing VCA and TCA, but it never clearly says two weapons must be fired to do so. If only implies that firing a turret-mounted weapon can involve a change of both CAs by its lack of requiring firing two weapons.
 

Doug Leslie

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D3.12 has "The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA...". I read that as the TCA can be changed and (i.e., and also) the VCA can be changed if you fire a turret-mounted weapon outside its current CA. The D3.51 example has many of examples of changing VCA and TCA, but it never clearly says two weapons must be fired to do so. If only implies that firing a turret-mounted weapon can involve a change of both CAs by its lack of requiring firing two weapons.
That is how I played it until Wayne sowed the seeds of doubt in my mind. I am sending a Q&A to MMP to seek clarification.
 

Eagle4ty

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That is how I played it until Wayne sowed the seeds of doubt in my mind. I am sending a Q&A to MMP to seek clarification.
I believe D3.5 intimates that both the TCA and the VCA may change to fire irrespective of their initial CAs at a target as a FG (The FP of a vehicle's various MG/IFE armaments may all be added together for one attack (...assuming the target lies within their respective CA), or fired separately at different targets [Mandatory FG (A7.55) applies]. If fired together in one attack, the worst applicable CA DRM of any participating MG/IFE (3.52) applies to the total attack.).
 

DVexile

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That is how I played it until Wayne sowed the seeds of doubt in my mind. I am sending a Q&A to MMP to seek clarification.
Thanks! I was thinking of doing the same thing but I’ll leave it to you.

To add to the confusion, in the very next clause about CA changes without firing the RB uses “or” instead of “and”:

at the end of any friendly fire phase in which the AFV is eligible to fire (a turret-mounted weapon for TCA or turret/bow-mounted weapon for VCA) without using Intensive Fire

Whatever the rule is it would be nice if it was the same in both cases!
 
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