Maybe it's time for Competitive Tournaments

[Stewart]

Hello!

OK I plowed through all that math......... what I understood anyway........

I freely admit and mean no offense, I am still missing the point.........

Peace

Roger

IF you don't understand the math and different seeding setup in the post...you WILL miss the point.

WRT unranked:
Most TD's can provide the "seeding" aspect of unranked players. So, I'll leave it to them for the Administrative details.

What is the point of a Tournament?
Some tournaments have different objectives.
I'm strictly looking at matched tourn. with ratings.
The top players I'm sure are kinda bored with first and 2nd round matchups. i.e. a day where there is just formality.

The comparison of seedings above is what you need to focus on.
The point is to make the PLAY COMPETITIVE. You aren't learning shit from getting greased by Pleva as one isn't as skilled to setup the way he greased you in the game. That's the Rules Knowledge difference. ASL isn't "OK Do THIS! and you win" It's a combination of rules that you have to use....otherwise, we'd be competitive....

It allows the players that casually play the game to STILL have a competitive field. ACTUALLY come and play and go home 4-0 against their peers. If they don't give a crap...well, that's up to them but not the subject of this thread. If Tournaments weren't meant to be competitive they'd be called GAME DAYS.

TLDR: create 2 tiers in decent sized tournaments to create tighter more exciting games. THAT"S what we all enjoy, down to the last turn fights, NOT conceding on turn 3 of 8. Our time, especially as old as most of us are, is FAR more valuable playing a fun and exciting game than getting waxed. Expected win is what the ratings display. Splitting the field with increase the Expected Win rates all the while not appreciably affecting IMO the top Dogs!
Win WIn
AND if you want to play Pleva....or the other Masters....He'll be done on turn 2 in round 1...hit him up after that...I'm sure he'll finish most of us off by the end of the Round 1 timer.

 

[Actionjick]

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about player's attitudes and presenting them as facts. Just sayin.

 

[VonHutier]

The Ratings aren't as cut and dry as one might think.

Chess ratings.
SIMPLE rules....Ratings are based on strategy and skill.

ASL Ratings
COMPLEX rules... Ratings are largely influenced by how much you can remember of the rules.
ie. 2 opponents vs 1.
So, not only is a lower rated player less skilled overall....He also knows far less about the game system.
Not so in Chess.

No dice in chess....

 

[SSlunt]

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about player's attitudes and presenting them as facts. Just sayin.

So you like to concede early. And hate exciting close games that go down to the last turn. Noted

 

[Actionjick]

So you like to concede early. And hate exciting close games that go down to the last turn. Noted

Totally incorrect reading of my post. I made no comments about my preferences.

Assumptions are being made by Stewart and presented as facts. Perhaps he has spoken to all the top dogs and has gotten their opinions on playing average opponents. I doubt that but that is an assumption on my part.

90% + of my playing was against much better opponents than I was. I wouldn't have had it any other way. Contrary to Stewart's assertion playing those who are the greats is exactly how those of us lesser players improve our game. I enjoyed playing any opponent but relished the opportunity to play the likes of McGrath, Fortenberry, Nixon, Cheney and Pleva. YMMV.

 

[SSlunt]

And I believe that you miss read Stewart‘s post he’s referring about tournaments not about regular every day play. When you go to a tournament do you hope to do well? You may not believe that you can win but I am sure that you hope that do well. It is certainly more exciting leave you with a better feeling when you come away with a couple wins against same or better appointments. Or do you feel good when you walk away with a Zero and ifive record having to go get three new quotes for a new Arse
Realize what he is talking about is for Competitive events not game night.
Most of the people here make assumptions or generalizations (see how I did that). when we see what we believe would benefit the hobby or the players.
Benefit to the hobby more competitive play
Benefit to the player that they see they may have a chance to do well or at least better than a Zero and five event

Like so many people here are Fond of saying Play it the way you want to or not. Run a tournament and try it out or not. And to quote you. YMMV

 

[Actionjick]

And I believe that you miss read Stewart‘s post he’s referring about tournaments not about regular every day play. When you go to a tournament do you hope to do well? You may not believe that you can win but I am sure that you hope that do well. It is certainly more exciting leave you with a better feeling when you come away with a couple wins against same or better appointments. Or do you feel good when you walk away with a Zero and ifive record having to go get three new quotes for a new Arse
Realize what he is talking about is for Competitive events not game night.
Most of the people here make assumptions or generalizations (see how I did that). when we see what we believe would benefit the hobby or the players.
Benefit to the hobby more competitive play
Benefit to the player that they see they may have a chance to do well or at least better than a Zero and five event

Like so many people here are Fond of saying Play it the way you want to or not. Run a tournament and try it out or not. And to quote you. YMMV

No my comments referred to tournament play.

Yes I would rather go zero wins and five losses playing better opponents.


I did help run a tournament. ASLOk.

 

[BattleSchool]

These players will end up winning more games, increasing their AREA ratings and have the opportunity to start playing and ENJOYING more Competitive games as the number of "Fair Tournaments" they go to increases. Instead of being 1-4 most of the time... they will go to 3-2 representing their skills and learning those 2-5 things per game instead of losing on Turn 2 to the Masters of the Tournament. Lower rated players likely will not understand how they lost the game vs the Masters and thereby LOSE the potential to learn to improve.
IMPROVE by playing someone slightly better than you to be able to face that challenge.

Reminds me of Justin Trudeau's mantra of “helping the middle class and people working hard to join it.”

Would your proposal not serve only to create an ASL middle class? Sure there'd be more winners advancing their way up the player rankings. But there'd still be players ending events with 0-5 records. What's your solution to that? Create additional player castes by creating ever more divisions? And to what end?

As I see it there's no way to ensure that matches are always competitive, competitive in this sense meaning players who are as evenly matched as possible.

Giving players a de facto step up the ASL ladder doesn't address the fact that there's always going to be a disparity between players, regardless of any otherwise common metric. Competitions are inherently unfair to begin with. In any set of players there'll always be a tiny subset at the extremes, savants and dabblers.

If a player is attracted to the prospect of climbing the ASL ladder, to the fame and fortune bestowed upon those who occupy the heady heights off ASLdom, he must apply himself to the task. He must seek out, play, and learn from the best. Playing middling players will only give him a false sense of his expertise, reinforced in part by an artificially high ranking.

If, instead, your goal is make people feel better about themselves, then maybe ASL isn't the solution. Unlike ASL, Ploughshares is cooperative rather than competitive. Outwitting the Tsar's soldiers might be more satisfying than mowing down Stalin's counterattacking Guards. No ranking, no seeds, and no solitary, self-conscious loser.

 

[Actionjick]

Reminds me of Justin Trudeau's mantra of “helping the middle class and people working hard to join it.”

Would your proposal not serve only to create an ASL middle class? Sure there'd be more winners advancing their way up the player rankings. But there'd still be players ending events with 0-5 records. What's your solution to that? Create additional player castes by creating ever more divisions? And to what end?

As I see it there's no way to ensure that matches are always competitive, competitive in this sense meaning players who are as evenly matched as possible.

Giving players a de facto step up the ASL ladder doesn't address the fact that there's always going to be a disparity between players, regardless of any otherwise common metric. Competitions are inherently unfair to begin with. In any set of players there'll always be a tiny subset at the extremes, savants and dabblers.

If a player is attracted to the prospect of climbing the ASL ladder, to the fame and fortune bestowed upon those who occupy the heady heights off ASLdom, he must apply himself to the task. He must seek out, play, and learn from the best. Playing middling players will only give him a false sense of his expertise, reinforced in part by an artificially high ranking.

If, instead, your goal is make people feel better about themselves, then maybe ASL isn't the solution. Unlike ASL, Ploughshares is cooperative rather than competitive. Outwitting the Tsar's soldiers might be more satisfying than mowing down Stalin's counterattacking Guards. No ranking, no seeds, and no solitary, self-conscious loser.

Wwwbitd I used to think that I was pretty good at SL. Then I met Fish and fourteen straight losses later I realized that I was delusional. My game improved though.

 

[Actionjick]

Stewart your system might have gained some traction thirty or forty years ago but the community has aged and perhaps is looking for other things at tournaments.

 

[BattleSchool]

Here's a thought. If you want to run a tourney with two divisions, start by seeding the premier division based on player ratings. In this division, the winners of each round are paired until a winner is declared after five (or more) rounds of play.

The second division is divided into groups of four players, randomly assigned. Round robin play ensures that each player gets to play each member of his group over the course of three rounds. The winner of the division is the undefeated player after three rounds of play. Failing that, those tied for most wins play an additional round(s) until a winner is determined.

And here's the critical difference. Each player's record in the premier division is reported, and player ratings adjusted accordingly. However, the records of the players in the second division are not reported. Regardless of how well they played, any rating that they may have is not effected by their performance in the second division. This system has the added benefit of allowing players to take a break from "competition play" yet still play to win, learn, and socialize.

 

[Larry]

In a ranked tournament (1:16, 2:15, ... 8:9 (all pairs add to 17)) (1:32, 2:31, 3:30 ... 16:17 (all pairs add to 33), the middle matches in the bracket achieve rough parity. In a bracketed structure that is designed to have 1:4 and 2:3 in the semis, the first round of consolation (16-person bracket for example) would pair 9:16, 12:13, 11:14, 10:15 while the championship bracket pairs 1:8, 5:4, 3:6, and 2:7. The third round pairs 1:4 and 2:3 in the semis while the consolation bracket pairs 3:8, 4:7, 5:6, 11:12, 10:13, 9:14, and 16:15.

The final round (assuming every higher seed won in every round) pairs 1:2 for the crown. 3 :8, 4:7, 5:6, 11:12, 10:13, 9:14, and 16:15. One player finishes with 4 wins, one player finishes with 4 losses, four with 1 loss, four with 1 win, and six finish 2 and 2.

In Stewart's scheme, the first seed beats the second in the first round and plays the ninth seed in the finals. It does not matter how you structure a tournament, half the players will lose in every single round. Someone will win in every round and someone will lose every round. Most will finish in between. The only question is whether you want a blow out in the first round (1:16) or the finals (1:9).

I would rather get slammed in round one or two rather than make it to the finals and get slammed then. But then again, I would rather just play.

The forum doesn't take a spreadsheet. Here is what a 16-man bracket looks like finished and on the bottom at start. The fields auto-fill or drop down in the spreadsheet.

 

[John Garlic]

Howdy,
Interesting comments, so here's another $.02. Most of my ASL is VASL PBEM with occassional online FtF (usually a league or online tournament). Due to geography, my normal FtF play with actual cardboard is a couple times a year. These are at tournaments. I have played in a few different tournaments and really don't expend any mental energy on how the tournament is organized. I am just happy someone was willing to put in the time to organize it. I really respect that commitment! I tend to prefer a more open format where as soon as you finish, play the next guy walking by. I've learned more from getting my hat handed to me, but I always try to play into the end game until it is mathematically impossible. I find those games just as enjoyable and usually learn something from them even as the situation deteriorates. As far as rankings go, I am fine whatever system a TD uses to seed people. I expend none of what little mental energy I have on that. There are certain people I've played who really own me when it comes to 'win-loss,' but I would never hesitate to play them again and again. "Don't tell me the odds!" I enjoy winning scenarios, but I enjoy playing much more. To really pump up the enjoyment, add in some groans, trash talk, and exclamations of joy and sorrow as my cardboard troops strive on the battlefield.
John

 

[Actionjick]

Howdy,
Interesting comments, so here's another $.02. Most of my ASL is VASL PBEM with occassional online FtF (usually a league or online tournament). Due to geography, my normal FtF play with actual cardboard is a couple times a year. These are at tournaments. I have played in a few different tournaments and really don't expend any mental energy on how the tournament is organized. I am just happy someone was willing to put in the time to organize it. I really respect that commitment! I tend to prefer a more open format where as soon as you finish, play the next guy walking by. I've learned more from getting my hat handed to me, but I always try to play into the end game until it is mathematically impossible. I find those games just as enjoyable and usually learn something from them even as the situation deteriorates. As far as rankings go, I am fine whatever system a TD uses to seed people. I expend none of what little mental energy I have on that. There are certain people I've played who really own me when it comes to 'win-loss,' but I would never hesitate to play them again and again. "Don't tell me the odds!" I enjoy winning scenarios, but I enjoy playing much more. To really pump up the enjoyment, add in some groans, trash talk, and exclamations of joy and sorrow as my cardboard troops strive on the battlefield.
John

Nice attitude.

 

[rdw5150]

SHRUG.......

I will not lie...... this whole thread is meaningless and I am bummed I responded in the first place...... the gaming (not just ASL) scene is what it is....... there is reason the same guys are 5-0 and the same guys are 0-5. Hell my buddy has won 6 out of the last 8 Successors tourney at WBC..........he's just that good.

There are really good players at every game and players that just are not that good....... its just reality.......

if people want a tourney where everyone gets a precipitation, that great. No thanks.

95% of ASL players admit to their level of play and have no problem with the scene.........

If I get matched up against a great player and lose, I will learn more........

just give out the precipitation trophy and realize most of us are OK with the scene as is.......

Roger

 

[rdw5150]

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about player's attitudes and presenting them as facts. Just sayin.

of he has no idea what he is talking about.........

 

[rdw5150]

And I believe that you miss read Stewart‘s post he’s referring about tournaments not about regular every day play. When you go to a tournament do you hope to do well? You may not believe that you can win but I am sure that you hope that do well. It is certainly more exciting leave you with a better feeling when you come away with a couple wins against same or better appointments. Or do you feel good when you walk away with a Zero and ifive record having to go get three new quotes for a new Arse
Realize what he is talking about is for Competitive events not game night.
Most of the people here make assumptions or generalizations (see how I did that). when we see what we believe would benefit the hobby or the players.
Benefit to the hobby more competitive play
Benefit to the player that they see they may have a chance to do well or at least better than a Zero and five event

Like so many people here are Fond of saying Play it the way you want to or not. Run a tournament and try it out or not. And to quote you. YMMV

No I do not think he miss read the post....... if the average player of ASL thinks he will win ASLOK, that is just not gonna happen. You know what? Most ASLers that go to ASLOK know that ahead of time. We are addressing the tourney scene. The really good players are going to win. Its the same as any game tourney.........

If I go to a Magic the Gathering tourney, I expect not to win. I am barely an average player. I own that and know it going in.

This is just about whining about the good players who continue to win (at least from my perspective)..........

But you know what, whatever BS system is come up with the best ASL players will continue to win........ they are that much better

 

[Actionjick]

No I do not think he miss read the post....... if the average player of ASL thinks he will win ASLOK, that is just not gonna happen. You know what? Most ASLers that go to ASLOK know that ahead of time. We are addressing the tourney scene. The really good players are going to win. Its the same as any game tourney.........

If I go to a Magic the Gathering tourney, I expect not to win. I am barely an average player. I own that and know it going in.

This is just about whining about the good players who continue to win (at least from my perspective)..........

But you know what, whatever BS system is come up with the best ASL players will continue to win........ they are that much better

Yep.

 

[Actionjick]

SHRUG.......

I will not lie...... this whole thread is meaningless and I am bummed I responded in the first place...... the gaming (not just ASL) scene is what it is....... there is reason the same guys are 5-0 and the same guys are 0-5. Hell my buddy has won 6 out of the last 8 Successors tourney at WBC..........he's just that good.

There are really good players at every game and players that just are not that good....... its just reality.......

if people want a tourney where everyone gets a precipitation, that great. No thanks.

95% of ASL players admit to their level of play and have no problem with the scene.........

If I get matched up against a great player and lose, I will learn more........

just give out the precipitation trophy and realize most of us are OK with the scene as is.......

Roger

I also regret posting. Attributing my loss of restraint to low biorythms.

 

[Actionjick]

IF you don't understand the math and different seeding setup in the post...you WILL miss the point.

WRT unranked:
Most TD's can provide the "seeding" aspect of unranked players. So, I'll leave it to them for the Administrative details.

What is the point of a Tournament?
Some tournaments have different objectives.
I'm strictly looking at matched tourn. with ratings.
The top players I'm sure are kinda bored with first and 2nd round matchups. i.e. a day where there is just formality.

The comparison of seedings above is what you need to focus on.
The point is to make the PLAY COMPETITIVE. You aren't learning shit from getting greased by Pleva as one isn't as skilled to setup the way he greased you in the game. That's the Rules Knowledge difference.
AND if you want to play Pleva....or the other Masters....He'll be done on turn 2 in round 1...hit him up after that...I'm sure he'll finish most of us off by the end of the Round 1 timer.

These assertions are incorrect. Pleva, Fort, Fish and the other Great Ones are not All Knowing and All Powerful, unconquerable by ordinary ASL players. They will not grease you in two turns. ASL is not chess and there is no fools mate. I played all of the Old School Great Ones and they were all very, very good. They were not gods, demigods or even heroes. Well maybe heroes
Their strength and what makes them Great Ones is their ability to outplay you over many turns. Taking advantage of every mistake you make or even not mistakes. Just not the best move.

You have to be on your A game when you play this guys. And for Grofaz's Sake learn how they eventually kicked your ass and use it the next time you play.

I'm done ranting. As I have said before test these ideas in real world situations with real people and see how it works. I'm just an OMSIP and could be totally out of touch with what the modern player wants.