PP3 Le Viet Relief aka And/Or again

[Philippe D.]

The rules of logic don't care what your opinions are. They are very strict and very clear. You're free to disagree, but it won't make you right.

Well, the rules of logic tend to agree with me, as logic is mostly a part of mathematics and mathematical usage is very clear that, by default, "or" is inclusive. In fact, mathematics is closer to a native language to me than English is.

In every intro to logic that I've ever read (or written), this "OR is inclusive" is very clearly stated. And it is usually also clearly stated that this systematic usage differs from that in many parts of natural languages, where it often takes context-sensitive meanings.

The rulebook clearly also uses "or" in the inclusive sense. In most cases the conditions involved are mutually exclusive, but there are cases where they are not; the first example I found with a quick search was an EXCeption in A4.11: EXC: The MF allotment of a SMC is reduced to four MF if it mounts, rides, or dismounts any form of conveyance during that Player Turn. I trust no one will imply that the MF of a SMC goes back to 6 if it somehow both mounts and dismounts in the same MPh.

 

[bprobst]

Assuming that you're not a native English speaker, I can understand your difficulty in grasping the importance of context.

 

[lightspeed]

Well, the rules of logic tend to agree with me, as logic is mostly a part of mathematics and mathematical usage is very clear that, by default, "or" is inclusive. In fact, mathematics is closer to a native language to me than English is.

In every intro to logic that I've ever read (or written), this "OR is inclusive" is very clearly stated. And it is usually also clearly stated that this systematic usage differs from that in many parts of natural languages, where it often takes context-sensitive meanings.

The rulebook clearly also uses "or" in the inclusive sense. In most cases the conditions involved are mutually exclusive, but there are cases where they are not; the first example I found with a quick search was an EXCeption in A4.11: EXC: The MF allotment of a SMC is reduced to four MF if it mounts, rides, or dismounts any form of conveyance during that Player Turn. I trust no one will imply that the MF of a SMC goes back to 6 if it somehow both mounts and dismounts in the same MPh.

It's too bad that Greenwood did not use "or" and "xor" like in logic. As you point out, they are reasonably well-defined.

An amusing thing that was pointed out to me was that, according to the ASLRB, the symbol / stands for "and/or" (ASLRB Pocket Ed,
Index, page 28). Therefore, and/or = and and/or or = and and and/or or or...

Hello world, indeed!

If I could go back in time, I would urge him to...I'd also buy Microsoft and Bitcoin...but I digress.

indy

 

[johnl]

Assuming that you're not a native English speaker, I can understand your difficulty in grasping the importance of context.

What is "native English" anyway. There's got to be a couple of hundred different dialects in England alone.

 

[Actionjick]

What is "native English" anyway. There's got to be a couple of hundred different dialects in England alone.

The Story of English was a documentary series back in the 90s that I really enjoyed. Great show about a very dynamic language.

 

[Faded 8-1]

It's too bad that Greenwood did not use "or" and "xor" like in logic. As you point out, they are reasonably well-defined.

I don't see much difference between that and the ASLRB as written. In the ASLRB as written, 'or' is exclusive, 'and/or' is inclusive. Changing 'or' to inclusive is unintuitive, and 'xor' is totally meaningless to non-programmers. Had he of used that in the text as you propose, the questions about it would be endless. As is, it rarely comes up, and doesn't seem to be a problem for most.

I think Greenwood did it exactly right.

 

[Larry]

Assuming that you're not a native English speaker, I can understand your difficulty in grasping the importance of context.

Syntax. Context is an element of every language. But syntax is not. Syntax is important to English.

 

[clubby]

WOW!
Larry just went beyond my language ability...
BUT, It does sound really official.

He lawyered the crap out of that one.

 

[Larry]

He lawyered the crap out of that one.

Many moons ago, I was a TA in college english writing class. I also dipped my toe into law review and editing. I have lost at least two, probably three, published cases over the conjunctions and and or. Experience is a brutal teacher. Just brutal.

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

Just a follow up on the scenario (not the question).

Circumstances prevented our get together in March. If only we could be set free of the shackles of work, family, and the world to play ASL…

However, we finally got our act together last weekend and for the first time since before the pandemic we sat down at the table for a game of ASL. The only twist was rather than 3 players, now we assembled as 4. As I had all the boards, overlays, and counters out for Le Veit Relief we plowed ahead with that scenario. I switched to the role of the small partisan band and Marc took over the Americans. Truly my chief roll was “rules guy” as none of us had played since 2019. Believe me a lot of rules were forgotten in 3 years! Ed even tapped into a Squad Leader rule concerning Mandatory Leader Direction, and we haven’t played that game in 3 decades.

The result? The German pushed everything he had at his right (south edge) away from the northward withdrawing Yanks. My Partisans were squarely in the way, but being outnumber 5 to 1 could do little but shoot and fall back. My guys gave a great account of themselves but ultimately could not stop the onslaught.

Meanwhile the Americans ran into a spot of bad luck between the German HMG Deathstar (firing from Hill 621) & a truly hot German Sniper (who capped the Yank 8-1 breaking both his squads on the LLMC). The result was they only managed to exit 12 VP’s off the north edge and the game came to a premature end on turn 5 prior to the Free French engaging.

My final verdict? This one looks tough on the Allies because the Yanks are simply not in position to slow the German advance. Also, even though there are clearly three separate forces (German, Free French & American) the Victory Conditions can (as happened to us) freeze out a Free French player.

In the end while it was fantastic to sit down with the guys, roll dice, and sling the snarky comments, this scenario was not a good choice for a multiplayer game.

 

[bendizoid]

Many moons ago, I was a TA in college english writing class. I also dipped my toe into law review and editing. I have lost at least two, probably three, published cases over the conjunctions and and or. Experience is a brutal teacher. Just brutal.

No better teacher than the School of Hard Knocks. Your trials have not been in vain for luckily we have an expert here on ‘and’,’or’ and ‘and/or’, I concur. One possibility is inclusive, one is exclusive and one is both (with inclusion sorta winning out).