Maximum ROF limits

Craig Benn

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Would the game be better if there was a limit to the number of ROF shots. So for example a MMG gave you a maximum of 2 extra shots ( for 3 in total) before being marked first fire. A HMG gave you a maximum of 3 extra shots (for 4 in total) e.t.c

We've all experienced situations where we've either dealt out or suffered what seems like unlimited ROF. There was a pile of troops that were going to win that scenario....and suddenly they're all double broken and wiped out. The fact that inevitably a ROF shot means a low roll compounds the damage. It wouldn't be so bad if you used a third ROF dice.

And it's downright boring when you fire 50mm mortars at people in buildings. Hit, ROF, no effect, rinse and repeat until you get a malf or a crit.

Part of me says yes - games would be more skill and less luck dependant. Another part of me says perhaps the game needs the possibility of such large luck swings to work. Otherwise you might as well play chess.

It may also be heretical, but I believe that a lot of 'precision dice' roll a disproportionate number of snake eyes. More than 1 in 36. I benefit from this as much as I suffer from it, but it does influence things. In +3 TEM and snakes against you is a MC of some kind....firing out at attackers is a KIA.

Am I crazy or a fearless truth seeker?
 

Mister T

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Would the game be better if there was a limit to the number of ROF shots.
Possibly but most would oppose it.

We've all experienced situations where we've either dealt out or suffered what seems like unlimited ROF. There was a pile of troops that were going to win that scenario....and suddenly they're all double broken and wiped out. The fact that inevitably a ROF shot means a low roll compounds the damage. It wouldn't be so bad if you used a third ROF dice.
ROF dice could be the way forward, but no TD has the guts to impose it in his event.
Playing in your own circle, you can do whatever you want provided your opponent agrees.

And it's downright boring when you fire 50mm mortars at people in buildings. Hit, ROF, no effect, rinse and repeat until you get a malf or a crit.
But then you roll low on TH and high on IFT, for a total net effect not that big. I've seen that many times. So it is not a huge issue after all. For AT Guns it is more of an issue.

It may also be heretical, but I believe that a lot of 'precision dice' roll a disproportionate number of snake eyes. More than 1 in 36.
I am not convinced. Could you be more specific?
 

Craig Benn

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I'm not trying to convince you. I'm voicing an opinion. It may be observer bias - without recording tens of thousands of rolls and then examining the data I can't know for sure. Just seems that ASL dice with symbols - divisional signs e.t.c instead of numbers seem to get more snakeyes than ordinary dice. I don't use this as an excuse for losing games - I tend to share dice so the effect evens out. I may well be wrong because the mind sometimes tricks you into seeing patterns that don't really exist. But I understand probability- at least in relation to two six sided dice - and don't believe in conspiracy theories, and try and look at things (not just ASL) as objectively as possible...and after playing many games over many years that's what I think.

I don't really want to get into a debate about it because a) nobody really changes their mind in Internet debates b) it's not really that important - everyone uses them so it evens out.


But - cough - thread derailment. Question is do you think it would be a better game with maximum ROF limits? You've said possibly but most would oppose it. Would you oppose it if someone suggested it to you in a game?
 

Jazz

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Jesus H. Christ, play with whatever rulz you want (assuming everybody is a consenting adult of course). It's your game.

Don't expect the community to rise up and install by acclamation your grudge SMR (Special Meta Rule).

Dammit, now you've done it. I've degenerated to the point of using a Pittman-ism....I feel so...cheap.
 

Actionjick

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If ROF is not looked at as how many rounds are fired but as the effectiveness of the rounds fired the low die roll for ROF may make more sense. In other words the accuracy, perceived or actual, of the shots fired in the mind of the gunner.
The actual real life cyclic rate ( not sure but I think that is the correct word ) of the weapon doesn't change. When a weapon gets ROF think of it as the gunner having achieved, perhaps only partially, and perhaps only his perception, what he intended when he fired.
ROF with an overall low roll and the gunner has hit his target . ROF with a high overall roll and the target may not have been hit. In both cases the gunner's perception is that the rounds fired were effective allowing him to continue firing.

ROF is just another game mechanic that either works well for you as a concept or requires some tweaking in your view. It all depends on your perception of the game.

This outlook on ROF requires some imagination and maybe some refreshments but it works for me. 🤗
 

Actionjick

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Jesus H. Christ, play with whatever rulz you want (assuming everybody is a consenting adult of course). It's your game.

Don't expect the community to rise up and install by acclamation your grudge SMR (Special Meta Rule).

Dammit, now you've done it. I've degenerated to the point of using a Pittman-ism....I feel so...cheap.
I suggest a long hot bubble bath with some lavender aromatics. You'll still feel cheap but at least you will smell better. 😉
 

Michael Dorosh

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Would the game be better if there was a limit to the number of ROF shots.
I thought the whole point of the ROF number was so that no one could accurately predict how many times a weapon would fire. The original SL system had a fixed ROF rule, I can only presume it was changed for a reason.
 

ScottRomanowski

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I like the ROF system as it is now.
As for your opinion on 'precision dice', the only way to be sure is to do a statistical test. We're lousy at estimating probabilities and remembering non-signficant results. Twenty years ago Wayne Hadady posted the process for doing a chi-squared test for d6 to the ASLML.
 

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Actionjick

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Every little bit helps...
Not in this thread but I have no problem with one of the only two ASL players in Wyoming buying three player scenarios. I drink with three other shipmates/comrades every night and really only have to fill one cup.😉

Party on dude!!🤪🤪
 

footsteps

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Jesus H. Christ, play with whatever rulz you want (assuming everybody is a consenting adult of course). It's your game.

Don't expect the community to rise up and install by acclamation your grudge SMR (Special Meta Rule).

Dammit, now you've done it. I've degenerated to the point of using a Pittman-ism....I feel so...cheap.
I thought that rant sounded familiar. :p
 

MajorDomo

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I have played two scenarios in the last month where ROF dominated the scenario in my favor.

A Pak 50L with seven ROF shots just shattered five Russian 628s assault engineers.

Another time, a 9-2, two MMGs, one HMG, firegroup blew away inhabitants of a stone building, pillbox and wooden building with six ROF shots.

Craig's opinion is spot on, with the low rolls and ROF it can be a scenario ender.

Those are how the bones roll.
 

Robin Reeve

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ROF 3 :
- one shot : 100%
ROF kept for :
  • a second shot : 50%
  • a third shot : 25%
  • a fourth shot : 12,5%
  • a fifth shot : 6.57%
  • a sixth shot : 3.3% (about a the level of snakes - 2.7%)
  • a seventh shot : 1.6%
  • an eighth shot : 0.8%
  • a ninth shot : 0.4%
Many other factors kick in :
  • cowering
  • CH for Ordnance
  • the efficiency of the weapon (admittedly a .50 cal can be deadly at 8FP)
  • the limit of targets (many times, when I break reduced and eliminated a target, there are no others)
  • ...
To prevent too much suffering from ROF tears, I would suggest : no stacking, good use of skulking/concealment, diversifying the targets (the fixed CA of an H/MMG in a building should be exploited).

From the psychological perspective :
  • when bad luck hits, take it as a possibility
  • remember that quite often both opponents have ROF weapons, so there can be some balance of luck
  • ROF is botched at least 50% of the time, so don't be too anxious about it :
Our perception of bad luck us very subjective : about firing FT, the massive (quasi Pavlovian) statement of many players is that they only manage to fire it once before it runs out of fuel. But with an X10, it has a 83% (30/36)chance toi fire a second time (about 70% a third, 60% a fourth, 50% a fifth, 40% a sixth).
I have had FT which never ran out of fuel during a scenario - and I am sure many players too, but we tend to see the darker side of things.

As for dice, as others explained, you would have to study a large number of rolls (say 10'000 to start with) to be able to evaluate their randomness.
And the way you throw them and the surface they roll on are factors too.
I don't seem to recall having had any dice which rolled more ones than other results.
If even precision dice seem to give more ones, I would venture that the problem is more presumably on your side. At least, that would be my thoughts if I felt that such a phenomenon was occurring with me.
 

Craig Benn

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Interesting that SL had a ROF limit mechanism (before my time) but it was changed for ASL. As ASL is the better game that would suggest maximum ROF might be the better option.

I'm aware of the numbers Robin. Another way of looking at it is in a 4 turn scenario where you fire in both prep/def fire a HMG in one of those turns will have at least 4 shots and 50% chance of 5+ with average effects dice of 5.5 (very roughly - in any 4 turn scenario you might not have that happen once, but balanced by number of times it happens more than once in other scenarios e.t.c)

HMGs don't cower because people always stick leaders with them.
Similarly if you fix your CA with a ROF shot, that limitation goes in Def Final Fire phase and you can continue with your ROF shots.

Generally the mitigation strategies only delay/reduce the effects of high ROF weapons. You need to break/kill the crews.

I think it's a particular problem in campaigns where SW are retained. After a few dates the proportion of HMGs to squads reaches levels where the HMGs dominate - especially as there are a lot of -2 leaders knocking about.

Those type of situations are less fun/interesting than scenarios where you have to get the most out of a wide range of troops IMO.
 

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Interesting that SL had a ROF limit mechanism (before my time) but it was changed for ASL. As ASL is the better game that would suggest maximum ROF might be the better option.

I'm aware of the numbers Robin. Another way of looking at it is in a 4 turn scenario where you fire in both prep/def fire a HMG in one of those turns will have at least 4 shots and 50% chance of 5+ with average effects dice of 5.5 (very roughly - in any 4 turn scenario you might not have that happen once, but balanced by number of times it happens more than once in other scenarios e.t.c)

HMGs don't cower because people always stick leaders with them.
Similarly if you fix your CA with a ROF shot, that limitation goes in Def Final Fire phase and you can continue with your ROF shots.

Generally the mitigation strategies only delay/reduce the effects of high ROF weapons. You need to break/kill the crews.

I think it's a particular problem in campaigns where SW are retained. After a few dates the proportion of HMGs to squads reaches levels where the HMGs dominate - especially as there are a lot of -2 leaders knocking about.

Those type of situations are less fun/interesting than scenarios where you have to get the most out of a wide range of troops IMO.
So what about the opposite case? I have gone games where my ROF 3 weapons get ZERO ROF shots which can be pretty damaging as well. Do you think steps should be taken to mitigate that? Perhaps rather than "ROF 3" an HMG should be guaranteed 3 shots per phase, an MMG 2, and an LMG 1. Personally, I don't much care about the ROF tears. I have given as many as I have received. I complain about the luck factor as much as anyone else in the game (perhaps even more). It irks me. Everyone always tells me it's "part of the game" and "what makes the game so interesting". -- jim
 

Craig Benn

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I'm not 100% sure anything needs fixing - I'm interested in what other people think.

It seems to me that overall rather than changing the rules, that any problem should be fixed through scenario design.

Fewer ROF 3 weapons and -2/-3 leaders. I remember looking at an Objective Schmidt scenario and there was 23 ROF3 weapons for something like 70-80 squads - that seemed ridiculously high.

As for a minimum number of ROF shots, assuming you're not being facetious- I don't like it/feels wrong. But....it would make balancing a scenario much easier. It would certainly result in some gamey tactics but perhaps we get that anyway as soon as a machine gun exhausts its ROF.
 
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