The importance of Third Party Publishers and their impact upon the game.

VonHutier

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The last module I bought was Peiper I...up to that time there was plenty to game....

I've realized since that a ton more has been released, and have just purchased " crucible of steel " ( I have all the old ASL modules ).
 

footsteps

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Wow. I don't think I've seen "humbly" positioned quite so near my name before.

Tis passing strange. Forsooth.
I'm still traumatized by the even closer placement of "affectionate". 😨:p
 

Alan Hume

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I take my hat off to all the third party publishers out there, as Olli and others have said, without them ASL would probably have died long ago and I never would have discovered the game (my buddy Rod got me into ASL about 2009 or so)

I just wish I could afford to support them more but it's hard enough just keeping up with the MMP releases
 

chris_olden

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I think down deep ASL appeals more just as much to people who enjoy buying stuff as opposed to people who enjoy playing it.
If I ain't playin', I ain't buyin'.
I haven't purchased an ASL product since early last year.
Guess I'm not a serious player.
 

Ganjulama

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If I ain't playin', I ain't buyin'.
I haven't purchased an ASL product since early last year.
Guess I'm not a serious player.
I’ve seriously considered not buying anymore myself. I have less time to play, FTF tournaments seem to be dying, and organizing the stuff is getting to be a chore. I have enough unplayed ASL to last a lifetime.
 

william.stoppel

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I’ve seriously considered not buying anymore myself. I have less time to play, FTF tournaments seem to be dying, and organizing the stuff is getting to be a chore. I have enough unplayed ASL to last a lifetime.
Doug you should try the Texas Team Tourney! Started dropping dice early this morning. Good bless Texas (and Rick runs a great tournament)!
 

Pitman

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To me, as an archivist-of-sorts of ASL, there is no doubt about the extreme importance of third party publishers to ASL. They helped turn a game into a phenomenon.

  1. TTP, from the very beginning, augmented the relatively small number of official scenarios, allowing ASLers to explore themes, locations and rules they otherwise never would have had an opportunity to attempt.
  2. TTP helped keep ASL alive throughout the 1990s, overall a fairly dark decade for official ASL for a number of reasons.
  3. TTP gave many ASLers another way to "play" with and spend time on ASL, adding to the enrichment they felt.
  4. TTP was where many ASL designers who later became regular submitters to official ASL first cut their teeth
  5. TTP allowed testing grounds for various ASL-related concepts, from terrain to units to other rules.
  6. TTP allowed some people the financial opportunity to attend ASLOK or do other desired ASL things.
  7. TTP helped the international spread of ASL.
  8. TTP helped turn ASL players from a mere customer base into a community.
  9. TTP put pressure on official ASL to keep both physical and other types of quality high.
  10. TTP sucked up so much of my money that I was never able to purchase that team of laser-eyed shark commandos that I would have used to take over the world with.
 

Eagle4ty

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To me, as an archivist-of-sorts of ASL, there is no doubt about the extreme importance of third party publishers to ASL. They helped turn a game into a phenomenon.

  1. TTP, from the very beginning, augmented the relatively small number of official scenarios, allowing ASLers to explore themes, locations and rules they otherwise never would have had an opportunity to attempt.
  2. TTP helped keep ASL alive throughout the 1990s, overall a fairly dark decade for official ASL for a number of reasons.
  3. TTP gave many ASLers another way to "play" with and spend time on ASL, adding to the enrichment they felt.
  4. TTP was where many ASL designers who later became regular submitters to official ASL first cut their teeth
  5. TTP allowed testing grounds for various ASL-related concepts, from terrain to units to other rules.
  6. TTP allowed some people the financial opportunity to attend ASLOK or do other desired ASL things.
  7. TTP helped the international spread of ASL.
  8. TTP helped turn ASL players from a mere customer base into a community.
  9. TTP put pressure on official ASL to keep both physical and other types of quality high.
  10. TTP sucked up so much of my money that I was never able to purchase that team of laser-eyed shark commandos that I would have used to take over the world with.
Excellent synopsis and I really appreciate your point #8 as that is what got me thinking about this thread in the 1st place.
 

olli

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To me, as an archivist-of-sorts of ASL, there is no doubt about the extreme importance of third party publishers to ASL. They helped turn a game into a phenomenon.

  1. TTP, from the very beginning, augmented the relatively small number of official scenarios, allowing ASLers to explore themes, locations and rules they otherwise never would have had an opportunity to attempt.
  2. TTP helped keep ASL alive throughout the 1990s, overall a fairly dark decade for official ASL for a number of reasons.
  3. TTP gave many ASLers another way to "play" with and spend time on ASL, adding to the enrichment they felt.
  4. TTP was where many ASL designers who later became regular submitters to official ASL first cut their teeth
  5. TTP allowed testing grounds for various ASL-related concepts, from terrain to units to other rules.
  6. TTP allowed some people the financial opportunity to attend ASLOK or do other desired ASL things.
  7. TTP helped the international spread of ASL.
  8. TTP helped turn ASL players from a mere customer base into a community.
  9. TTP put pressure on official ASL to keep both physical and other types of quality high.
  10. TTP sucked up so much of my money that I was never able to purchase that team of laser-eyed shark commandos that I would have used to take over the world with.
Best post on this yet, well said Mark!
 

Actionjick

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Excellent synopsis and I really appreciate your point #8 as that is what got me thinking about this thread in the 1st place.
For #8 you would have to define ASL community, determine when that community started growing and at what point TPPs started having a noticeable impact with the ASL consumer. I'm not sure either of the last two can be determined accurately.

I would think that the internet has had a much greater impact on the growth of the community than TPPs. Pre internet it would have been FTF events.

Although pre internet the value of the TPP fanzines cannot be overlooked.

Just some thoughts from my discussion with Colonel Cuervo. 🤔🤪
 

Michael Dorosh

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For #8 you would have to define ASL community, determine when that community started growing and at what point TPPs started having a noticeable impact with the ASL consumer. I'm not sure either of the last two can be determined accurately.

I would think that the internet has had a much greater impact on the growth of the community than TPPs. Pre internet it would have been FTF events.

Although pre internet the value of the TPP fanzines cannot be overlooked.

Just some thoughts from my discussion with Colonel Cuervo. 🤔🤪
My reaction to Eagle's post was the same. Community was created by the house organs back in the day, ditto the tourneys predating the internet. Mostly though, my ASL community was myself and three high school friends, plus several more casual acquaintances I had whom I knew played the game or wanted to learn and willingly sat down with me to learn a bit about it.
 

Actionjick

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My reaction to Eagle's post was the same. Community was created by the house organs back in the day, ditto the tourneys predating the internet. Mostly though, my ASL community was myself and three high school friends, plus several more casual acquaintances I had whom I knew played the game or wanted to learn and willingly sat down with me to learn a bit about it.
A premise that some may base their opinions on is that ASL would have died out without the release of new modules. Whether official or from TPPs. I disagree with this assumption but YMMV. This premise does increase the perceived influence of TPPs.

I have further thoughts on " community " but they will be in the Shanghaid thread if I decide to pontificate on them. 🤔
 

hongkongwargamer

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Yeah, I am not sure if ASL would have died out without the release of new modules. It might diminish because of its lack of availability to newbies but I think folks will still be playing what they have.

What TPP does is that it gets more of the players' interests tied to the community's overall viability. Don't forget: TPP is not just about designers & publishers but armies of proofers & playtesters as well. So apart from just being players, a large tract of people in the community can get involved in the design and production as well. Hoards more are involved in running tournaments (some to playtest more stuff), producing accessories and social media content. That in turn sucks even more people in and the spiral continues. Instead of being a past time, TPPs make it a multi-faceted outlet of creative energies.
 

Actionjick

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Yeah, I am not sure if ASL would have died out without the release of new modules. It might diminish because of its lack of availability to newbies but I think folks will still be playing what they have.

What TPP does is that it gets more of the players' interests tied to the community's overall viability. Don't forget: TPP is not just about designers & publishers but armies of proofers & playtesters as well. So apart from just being players, a large tract of people in the community can get involved in the design and production as well. Hoards more are involved in running tournaments (some to playtest more stuff), producing accessories and social media content. That in turn sucks even more people in and the spiral continues. Instead of being a past time, TPPs make it a multi-faceted outlet of creative energies.
I agree that the more people involved in all aspects of the game the better. TPPs are also able to fill those niches that may not be feasible for MMP in the short term. That is also probably a good thing.

I see this through the lens of a gamer who grew up with repetitive games. Monopoly was Monopoly. Chess was chess. The same game every time but different every time. Early SL was a handful of scenarios we played and replayed. Great every time.

That's why I believe ASL would have continued had everything new stopped when AH went under.

Marc's #8 conclusion about the importance of TPPs I felt was flawed because of the assumption that the community was so influenced by them. Perhaps that's true for this community, us, we, but I would say most ASL players have never played, purchased or even heard of a TPP. I just felt Marc got a little overenthusiastic about TPPs and made some generalizations. Being in a tincantankerous old guy mood I decided to pontificate. 😊😊🤣🤣

Oh yeah. Captain Bacchus was egging me on!😋😋😋🤪🤪🤪
 

hongkongwargamer

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I agree that the more people involved in all aspects of the game the better. TPPs are also able to fill those niches that may not be feasible for MMP in the short term. That is also probably a good thing.

I see this through the lens of a gamer who grew up with repetitive games. Monopoly was Monopoly. Chess was chess. The same game every time but different every time. Early SL was a handful of scenarios we played and replayed. Great every time.

That's why I believe ASL would have continued had everything new stopped when AH went under.

Marc's #8 conclusion about the importance of TPPs I felt was flawed because of the assumption that the community was so influenced by them. Perhaps that's true for this community, us, we, but I would say most ASL players have never played, purchased or even heard of a TPP. I just felt Marc got a little overenthusiastic about TPPs and made some generalizations. Being in a tincantankerous old guy mood I decided to pontificate. 😊😊🤣🤣

Oh yeah. Captain Bacchus was egging me on!😋😋😋🤪🤪🤪
Perhaps that's what we are saying: TPPs or an ecosystem that allows the proliferation of TPPs allow players to move from being mere players to creators, producers, playtesters & promoters. ASL hence go from being a game that you play to a COMMUNITY that you are a part of, a community where more of your personal energies are a fabric of.

IE .. it expanded from being a game, to a lifestyle.
 
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volgaG68

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I would think that the internet has had a much greater impact on the growth of the community than TPPs.
IMO, the internet was the most significant nexus for creating the ASL "community" as we know it today. Pre-internet, there were hundreds of isolated, pocket-communities and a modestly sized 'overall' community (due primarily to The General and to a lesser extent the Annuals).

I have heard over the years many such examples such as mine.....solo player in a vacuum, taught/played with one or two others over the years, thought ASL died after the game store said AH was folding. Got my first internet access about 2012 and thought I would look up "ASL Players List" that I recalled from The General (?). Absolutely gobsmacked by the search engine results! It hadn't died, it had morphed into a monster! Started a GS account, and the dearly departed Paul Weir was gracious enough to privately explain to me what happened during all of those years. I never abandoned ASL, nor replaying/DYOing with the original AH gear, but I played almost daily for 20+ years without being a part of any 'community'. The internet is 100% responsible for introducing me to all of you step-cousins that I didn't know were related to me. 🤣

Perhaps that what we are saying: TPPs or an ecosystem that allows the proliferation of TPPs allow players to move from being mere players to creators, producers, playtesters & promoters.
Agreed, this was my metamorphosis after the internet introduced me to the 'community'. Tickled pink the first time I had PT credits in a LCP pack, and have proofed some unreleased (so far!) scenarios. Whereas TPP were formed/published in the past by small groups via phone/mail/FTF, now due to the internet many hundreds of players have gotten involved with PT/proofing/designing/purchasing TPP material. I think I would be remiss to not mention how much it expanded the official MMP family of PT/proofing/designing as well. It turned MMP's machine from a small cadre of official/non-official personnel with a handful of area clubs into a global army, or at least battalion ;). Pre-internet, how few outside of Europe knew of LFT? Pre-internet, would Andy Rogers' Hatten In Flames have even come to the attention of MMP's office, let alone the international cooperation he used to get it ready for submission in the first place?
 
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