Dash Legality

commissar1969

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I think it does answer the question. The example says that a unit moving from CC8 to AA7 can Dash; the unit in Y9 can only fire with 2FP at it in BB7. The last sentence says that this would not change if the road ended in BB7. The last sentence also says that nothing would change if there was a road running from CC8 to AA7.
So if the only roads were the purple lines in this image, CC8 could still dash to AA7, and Y9 would fire vs a Dashing unit in BB7. This is an odd situation but it's what the rules say.
View attachment 17564
Thanks, Scott - that makes it clearer. For the life of me, I do not understand how essentially going down a road counts as going from one side of the road to the other, but if that's what the example says, that's what the example says. :(
 

ScottRomanowski

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You're welcome. I think the designers might have been thinking of the case where two roads cross, like 45W4. WWII-era European city streets tended to be narrower than one 40m hex, so I think that's why Dashing was created. The implications lead to some odd images, but I find that if I imagine the artwork "really" being very close to the road, not a hex away, Dashes from 45W5-X4-X3 (vs an enemy unit in P0), W5-W4-X3, V4-W4-W3, Y6-Z5-Z4 or Z6-Z5-AA5 are more palatable.
 

zgrose

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Thanks, Scott - that makes it clearer. For the life of me, I do not understand how essentially going down a road counts as going from one side of the road to the other, but if that's what the example says, that's what the example says. :(
Going back to the original image, which road are you saying is being crossed by moving from N5 to M7, @ScottRomanowski? Trying to catch the nuance here...

(edit) my guess is there is an L6->Q4 and the Q7 road terminates at N6 is the basis?

17576

(edit2) this reminds me a lot of this Q&A which is why I still think no Road is crossed, but keeping my mind open.
17577
 
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klasmalmstrom

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So if the only roads were the purple lines in this image, CC8 could still dash to AA7, and Y9 would fire vs a Dashing unit in BB7. This is an odd situation but it's what the rules say.
View attachment 17564
What it the purple roads (still the only ones existing) were drawn like this?
17578

Would you still think a Dash from CC8->AA7 is possible?
 

ScottRomanowski

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Going back to the original image, which road are you saying is being crossed by moving from N5 to M7
Yes, I think it's the Q7-P6-O7-N6 road.

this reminds me a lot of this Q&A which is why I still think no Road is crossed, but keeping my mind open.
I agree with that Q&A, you can't Dash from the G7 Rubble, through G8, to F8 or H8.

A4.63 never says "cross a road" (probably to avoid the inevitable "why did the 10-3 cross the road" jokes). It does say from somewhere "on one side of the road" to somewhere "on the other side of the road" but it never defines what that means.
For instance, in your RB map example, what if the end of the road in G8 hooked slightly NE, coming close to G8/H7 but without touching the hexside (see 33AA2)? If a hook counts, how much of a hook? What if it were a bulge, like 20DD8? Is that enough to allow Dashing from CC9 through DD8 to EE9. What about 33Q8 and R8->Q8->P7?
Maybe we could get Perry, Klas, every ASL Rule Lawyer, and a few devil's advocates to all sit down for an hour or two and work out a rule wording. For now, how does this work?

Any Road Location has roads crossing (a) one, (b) two, or (c) ≥ three hexsides.
(a) If only one hexside is crossed by a road, assume the road continues and crosses the directly opposite hexside, and handle it as case (b).
(c) If ≥ three hexsides are crossed by a road, the moving player may pick one, and treat it per case (a), or any two, and treat it per case (b).
(b) Exactly two hexsides are crossed by a road*. Call them hexsides A and B. You can start at hexside A and go either clockwise or counterclockwise to get to hexside B. Let Set 1 be those hexsides encountered going clockwise from hexside A to hexside B; let Set 2 be those hexsides encountered going counterclockwise from hexside A to hexside B. Hexsides A and B are members of neither set. A unit can Dash if it crosses one hexside in each Set.

* Either two actual roads, or one actual road and an assumed crossing from (a), or two actual roads and ≥ one road being ignore from (c).
 

Sparafucil3

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Yes, I think the unit could still Dash.
I think the rules are un-certain on this. I agree, it goes a Dash through BB7 goes through an an Interim Road Location, but it does not cross the road IMO. A Dash from CC8 - AA7 is illegal IMO. A Dash from CC8 to BB6 would be IMO. The second passes my suggested "thread test". The first does not. As I said above however, this is the EDGE case and I believe the only real recourse is for Perry to weigh in on this. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
 

zgrose

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The rule doesn’t use the word cross, but to travel from one side to the other side directly sure sounds like a crossing is strongly implied. In either case, it seems that being on the other side of this road seems a matter of perspective. If some one else hasn’t already, I’ll send a message to Perry later today.
 

Eagle4ty

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What it the purple roads (still the only ones existing) were drawn like this?
View attachment 17578

Would you still think a Dash from CC8->AA7 is possible?
One need only ask a few questions:
  1. Does a road location exist in BB7? {regardless of the entry/exit hexside(s) of the road}
  2. Is the unit in CC8 on one side of that road depiction?
  3. Is AA7 on another side side of that road depiction?
  4. Is the German unit in non-Open Ground to the firing unit in Y9 and will its destination also be non-Open Ground to that same firer?
If the answer to all of the above is yes than Dash is allowed vs that firing unit. However, that is not the case from the Russian unit in CC6 and therefore, even though a Dash was declared to move through BB7, his move is not considered a Dash to that unit.

[EDIT-NOTE] I also believe Perry's answer in the Q&A A4.63 & A11.8 noted by Scott is incorrect (not the fist time a Q&A has been interpreted wrong predicated upon poor judgement of the situation presented or incomplete reading of an entire rule including the examples at the time) as it violates A4.63 EXAMPLE when it states, "None of this would change if the road ended in BB7...".
 
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Sparafucil3

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The rule doesn’t use the word cross, but to travel from one side to the other side directly sure sounds like a crossing is strongly implied. In either case, it seems that being on the other side of this road seems a matter of perspective. If some one else hasn’t already, I’ll send a message to Perry later today.
What's the alternative, go all the way around the world in the other direction? I think that's more than a couple of MF's ;) -- jim
 

von Marwitz

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I am not sure how this could be read any other way than to make it a requirement to "start on one side of a road and end up on the other side". IMO, understanding that a DASH MUST cross a road segment is key to understanding whether a DASH is legal or not. Then it's a simple matter of drawing a thread from the origin to the destination and seeing of the thread lays across a road segment in the middle Road Location. As noted above, this is true (barely) in the map clip provided. -- jim
Sounds reasonable to me.

These are the Q&A I have found on the matter - or close to it:

17582

and

17583

To visualize:

17584

von Marwitz
 
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klasmalmstrom

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The EX in the rulebook is simpler - since the road clearly goes through the entire hex....i.e., there's no question of whether one is crossing a road from one side to the other....

Also, the entire rule A4.63 + EX was considered when that Q&A was answered.
 
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MajorDomo

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What it the purple roads (still the only ones existing) were drawn like this?
View attachment 17578

Would you still think a Dash from CC8->AA7 is possible?
I would say no dash on the purple roads.

A. One road is CC7-BB7-AA7.
B. Another road is CC7-BB7-CC8

A Dash from CC7 to AA7 would be along the road in A. above and not across the road in B.
 

Sparafucil3

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The EX in the rulebook is simpler - since the road clearly goes through the entire hex....i.e., there's no question of whether one is crossing a road from one side to the other....

Also, the entire rule A4.63 + EX was considered when that Q&A was answered.
I know Steve Pleva submitted a Q&A a while ago. Any idea on the status of that? -- jim
 

zgrose

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BTW, the word "cross" is not used in A4.63 or its examples.
Going from one side to the other is, however. I did send Perry an email, but not from my usual email account so hopefully it's on his list somewhere to answer.
 

Sparafucil3

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Yes, but using "cross" seems to have caused some people to believe that a line from the start hex to the end hex must cross the road, but that is not in the rules.
Some? I think it's just me :) I also said this was opinion and not the rules were not clear on this. I don't know what more I could have done to make it clear this wasn't in the rules.

The rule book doesn't define what it means when it says "and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road". Your illustration definitely fulfills the bolded portion but that's not enough to make it a legal Dash. To be a legal Dash, it must also move from one side of the Road to another. Your illustration arguably fulfills the rest of the excerpt, but sadly, arguably it doesn't fulfill the the requirement either. And that's the issue. Two reasonable people, looking at the rule, and reaching equally reasonable conclusions which differ. If you allow your illustrated Dash, what about a Dash from CC1 to BB2/DD2 via CC2? Assuming otherwise non-Open Ground, what about a Dash from CC1 - CC3 via CC2?

How do you define the red portions of the rule excerpt above? What does "cross" the road mean to @ScottRomanowski? What makes your illustration legal? Going through the Road location isn't enough to fulfill the requirement.

FWIW, the illustration you offer is almost EXACTLY the Q&A image that Steve Pleva sent in as I recall. -- jim
 

von Marwitz

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Some? I think it's just me :) I also said this was opinion and not the rules were not clear on this. I don't know what more I could have done to make it clear this wasn't in the rules.

The rule book doesn't define what it means when it says "and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road". Your illustration definitely fulfills the bolded portion but that's not enough to make it a legal Dash. To be a legal Dash, it must also move from one side of the Road to another. Your illustration arguably fulfills the rest of the excerpt, but sadly, arguably it doesn't fulfill the the requirement either. And that's the issue. Two reasonable people, looking at the rule, and reaching equally reasonable conclusions which differ. If you allow your illustrated Dash, what about a Dash from CC1 to BB2/DD2 via CC2? Assuming otherwise non-Open Ground, what about a Dash from CC1 - CC3 via CC2?

How do you define the red portions of the rule excerpt above? What does "cross" the road mean to @ScottRomanowski? What makes your illustration legal? Going through the Road location isn't enough to fulfill the requirement.

FWIW, the illustration you offer is almost EXACTLY the Q&A image that Steve Pleva sent in as I recall. -- jim
I am with you on this one. IMHO this is exactly what the following Q&A says in the case of Road-End hexes:

17627



17628

Looking at the above picture, the Q&A means this:

Road End hex is ok, BUT to Dash from BB1 to DD1, the unit is not crossing from one side of the road to the other and thus NOT fulfilling the prerequisite laid out in the quoted Q&A. If this interpretation were not correct, then the following part of that Q&A would be superfluous: "as long as the unit is crossing from one side of the road to the other". But this addendum is there for a reason.

This can only mean that for the case of the CC2 road end hex a Dash from BB1 to DD1 is NA while a Dash from BB1 to DD2 is legit.

In other words: Yes, you have to pass the "Thread Test" for a legal Dash.


von Marwitz
 

zgrose

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Yes, but using "cross" seems to have caused some people to believe that a line from the start hex to the end hex must cross the road, but that is not in the rules.

View attachment 17626
Right, but you seem to believe you are on the other side of the road and some of us aren't bought into that yet. And that IS in the rules. :)
 
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