DM or Surrender

nekengren2

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What happens to German brokie in T9?
It is German turn, German RtPh is finished, end of Russian RtPh he UNCONCEALS that concealed unit in U10.

  1. German becomes DM
  2. German Surrenders
  3. German Eliminated
17519

Since German routing is done, I say it becomes DM. The German is only forced to Rout/Surrender during the German RtPh.
 
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hongkongwargamer

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The Russian unit in U10 is Concealed and therefore Unknown to the German brokies. They do not go DM. They do nothing and stay in place
A10.62 ... A broken unit is also automatically under DM whenever a Known armed enemy unit is ADJACENT to it (even if it does not end the phase ADJACENT to it)
 

EagleIV

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The Russian unit in U10 is Concealed and therefore Unknown to the German brokies. They do not go DM. They do nothing and stay in place
A10.62 ... A broken unit is also automatically under DM whenever a Known armed enemy unit is ADJACENT to it (even if it does not end the phase ADJACENT to it)
I think you missed the point where the Russian unconceals the unit. Since the German RtPh is over they are just DM.
 

bendizoid

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unconcealed them ?
What happens to German brokie in T9?
It is German turn, German RtPh is finished, end of Russian RtPh he reveals that concealed unit in U10.

  1. German becomes DM
  2. German Surrenders
  3. German Eliminated
View attachment 17519

Since German routing is done, I say it becomes DM. The German is only forced to Rout/Surrender during the German RtPh.
The German is forced to rout/surrender during either RtPh. Looks like they should be DMed already.
 
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hongkongwargamer

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I think you missed the point where the Russian unconceals the unit. Since the German RtPh is over they are just DM.
Ah by “revealing” the Concealed unit, I thought the Russians unHIP’d the Concealed unit (and hence the situation in the picture)
 

Sparafucil3

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The German is forced to rout/surrender during either RtPh. Looks like they should be DMed already.
Assuming there is an "upstairs", he would first rout upstairs and then Surrender next RtPh. Optionally, now that he has a legal rout path free from Interdiction, he could ignore his own building and rout to T7 and beyond if that is advantageous. The unit would suffer interdiction for his trouble though. Nothing for free in ASL. -- jim
 

bendizoid

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Assuming there is an "upstairs", he would first rout upstairs and then Surrender next RtPh. -- jim
Because there is a alternate non-interdicted rout path (we just went though this a few months ago with that weird American rout in the woods) he could go through T8 to T7, take a interdiction or he could just Low crawl to T8.
I remember making the point about an available 1st level to rout to helps guys get out of trouble when otherwise they would surrender.
 

bendizoid

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Gents

i suspect what he meant was : this is the German turn, the Germans routed, the Russians then routed and then he reveals (read : unconceal?) that concealed unit in U10.
I’m with ya Hongkong, as the board looks now nothing should happen, except the brokies should already be DMed. Sometimes I wonder if an answered question crosses the line to become a kibitz, I just want to help a little. ‘Kibitz’, that’s got to be Yiddish, lol.
 

EagleIV

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Gents

i suspect what he meant was : this is the German turn, the Germans routed, the Russians then routed and then he reveals (read : unconceal?) that concealed unit in U10.
Yes I read the OP this way and since the Russians have done their routing it is too late for any Germans to rout, so the unit is only DM.
 

nekengren2

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thanks guys. I see the confusion.

More specifically,
It is German turn, German RtPh is finished, end of Russian RtPh he UNCONCEALS that concealed unit in U10.

So it seems the answer is
1. German becomes DM

My opponent was saying the German should Surrender. That didn't seem right since my rout phase had already ended with my unit NOT DM.
 

ScottRomanowski

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Let's start with an easy case: if your opponent unconcealed the unit at the start of the APh, obviously your unit wouldn't have surrendered in the RPh.

There's a PerrySez that says the ATTACKER does the complete RtPh, then the DEFENDER:
ASOP & A10 The ASOP for 6. Rout Phase says “ATTACKER first, then DEFENDER (A3.6). Each step in the ASOP is indicated as “Both” Should the RtPh be conducted as
a) ATTACKER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, 6.21, 6.31 then DEFENDER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, 6.21, 6.31
or
b) ATTACKER does Step 6.11, DEFENDER does Step 6.11, ATTACKER does Step 6.12, DEFENDER does Step 6.12, ATTACKER does Step 6.21, DEFENDER does Step 6.21, ATTACKER does Step 6.31, DEFENDER does Step 6.31
or
c) ATTACKER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, DEFENDER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, ATTACKER does Step 6.21, DEFENDER does Step 6.21, ATTACKER does Step 6.31, DEFENDER does Step 6.31
or
d) Some other sequence?
A. (a) [Jonathan Cole to Perry Cocke, ASLML 2 Apr 2003]


Now for the case at hand. Your opponent can drop concealment and force your unit to rout any time during the German portion of the RtPh. The German part of ASOP step 6.21 is over; your opponent could have said "Wait, it's not done yet. I unconceal this unit here." He didn't, and continued on. He can't go backwards in time any more than you can Prep Fire a unit after moving a unit in the MPh.
 

ScottRomanowski

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As another example, imagine the German player decides not to rout a DM unit, but then wants to rout it in the middle of the Russian player's RtPh, in order to affect subsequent Russian routs. That's not allowed either.

If one player said they forgot to rout a unit and would like to "back up time", I think most players would allow it. If that new rout had any bearing on their routs, they'd be entitled to redo their routs too. If your opponent had wanted to unconceal the unit to force the German unit to rout, but had forgotten, again I think most players would allow it, backing up time and having the German unit rout (and possibly redoing any Russian routs).

But in the situation in question, the Russian player is trying to back up only some of time -- back up time so he can force the German unit to rout, but don't back up time to allow the German unit to rout.
 

nekengren2

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Let's start with an easy case: if your opponent unconcealed the unit at the start of the APh, obviously your unit wouldn't have surrendered in the RPh.

There's a PerrySez that says the ATTACKER does the complete RtPh, then the DEFENDER:
ASOP & A10 The ASOP for 6. Rout Phase says “ATTACKER first, then DEFENDER (A3.6). Each step in the ASOP is indicated as “Both” Should the RtPh be conducted as
a) ATTACKER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, 6.21, 6.31 then DEFENDER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, 6.21, 6.31
or
b) ATTACKER does Step 6.11, DEFENDER does Step 6.11, ATTACKER does Step 6.12, DEFENDER does Step 6.12, ATTACKER does Step 6.21, DEFENDER does Step 6.21, ATTACKER does Step 6.31, DEFENDER does Step 6.31
or
c) ATTACKER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, DEFENDER does Steps 6.11, 6.12, ATTACKER does Step 6.21, DEFENDER does Step 6.21, ATTACKER does Step 6.31, DEFENDER does Step 6.31
or
d) Some other sequence?
A. (a) [Jonathan Cole to Perry Cocke, ASLML 2 Apr 2003]


Now for the case at hand. Your opponent can drop concealment and force your unit to rout any time during the German portion of the RtPh. The German part of ASOP step 6.21 is over; your opponent could have said "Wait, it's not done yet. I unconceal this unit here." He didn't, and continued on. He can't go backwards in time any more than you can Prep Fire a unit after moving a unit in the MPh.
Thanks. Yes, attacker routs first, then defender routs. Correct, defender routed his stuff and then BEFORE APh says, "I'm unconcealing this guy to basically kill your guy who didn't rout". Can't do that like you said.
 
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