German pioneer company/squad TOE organization

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I was web surfing for the hell of it and came across this ...
... I've always been under the impression that German Pioneers were SMG heavy (aka. the 838 squad, similar to Russian SMG squads). But, according to the referenced post (not sure how accurate it is) an early war German Pioneer squad, according to "official" TOE only has 3 more riflemen (2 for late war) than a standard German 10-man infantry squad (SL [smg], ASL [rifle], 3-man MG crew [1 rifle, 1 pistol, 1 mg34], 5 riflemen [or 4 riflemen in many cases]), and is otherwise armed exactly the same. To my way of thinking, that would make a pioneer squad 568 at best .. not that it matters .. after all, it's just a game. But, it got me searching for some kind of official/valid TOE for German pioneer units in WW2 (and their squad level disposition/arms), and I came up boxcars .. simply can't find any kind of "official" TOE as to German Pioneer units? It's frustrating, anybody have any additional info or references?
 

von Marwitz

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I was web surfing for the hell of it and came across this ...
... I've always been under the impression that German Pioneers were SMG heavy (aka. the 838 squad, similar to Russian SMG squads). But, according to the referenced post (not sure how accurate it is) an early war German Pioneer squad, according to "official" TOE only has 3 more riflemen (2 for late war) than a standard German 10-man infantry squad (SL [smg], ASL [rifle], 3-man MG crew [1 rifle, 1 pistol, 1 mg34], 5 riflemen [or 4 riflemen in many cases]), and is otherwise armed exactly the same. To my way of thinking, that would make a pioneer squad 568 at best .. not that it matters .. after all, it's just a game. But, it got me searching for some kind of official/valid TOE for German pioneer units in WW2 (and their squad level disposition/arms), and I came up boxcars .. simply can't find any kind of "official" TOE as to German Pioneer units? It's frustrating, anybody have any additional info or references?
You should note that there is a difference in Assault Engineers (Sturm Pioniere) and Engineers (Pioniere, i.e. the ones who build bridges & stuff). Furthermore, much depends on the timeframe and the type of deployment.

There is a plethora of KStNs (Kriegsstärkenachweise), which provide detailed lists of men and equipment for the various types of Pionier units, which are covered by KStN 700 to 749. Here is a link that can provide a starting point for further research based on the KStNs.

In general, the following link should be a good starting point for you if to comes to TOE:

Niehorster

You are probably searching for a Sturm Pionier Kompanie of around 1943?
The one you are looking for is

KStn 711 e for a Stu. Pi. Kp. (Sturm Pionier Kompanie).

This is, alas, I could not find at Niehorster. These but these links will give some clues:

Inquiry for the TOE of a Sturm Bataillon (as used in Stalingrad) with comments by Niehorster himself - insteresting, especially with regard to the remark on flamethrowers

Another interesting link here.

PIONIER-KOMPANIE a (für le. Div.) KStN 711a dated 01.11.1943 Pionieer Company for a Light Division
PIONIER-KOMPANIE (motorisiert) KStN 712 dated 01.11.1943 Motorized Pionieer Company
PIONIER-KOMPANIE (gepanzert) KStN 714 dated 01.11.1943 Armored Pionieer Company

Here are some more (graphic) KStNs for various Pionier units, though not a Sturm Pionier Kompanie. Follow the link on the webpage "Kriegsstärkenachweise".

Hope that helps you a bit.

von Marwitz
 
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Actionjick

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You should note that there is a difference in Assault Engineers (Sturm Pioniere) and Engineers (Pioniere, i.e. the ones who build bridges & stuff). Furthermore, much depends on the timeframe and the type of deployment.

There is a plethora of KStNs (Kriegsstärkenachweise), which provide detailed lists of men and equipment for the various types of Pionier units, which are covered by KStN 700 to 749. Here is a link that can provide a starting point for further research based on the KStNs.

In general, the following link should be a good starting point for you if to comes to TOE:

Niehorster

You are probably searching for a Sturm Pionier Kompanie of around 1943?
The one you are looking for is

KStn 711 e for a Stu. Pi. Kp. (Sturm Pionier Kompanie).

This is, alas, I could not find at Niehorster. These but these links will give some clues:

Inquiry for the TOE of a Sturm Bataillon (as used in Stalingrad) with comments by Niehorster himself - insteresting, especially with regard to the remark on flamethrowers

Another interesting link here.

PIONIER-KOMPANIE a (für le. Div.) KStN 711a dated 01.11.1943 Pionieer Company for a Light Division
PIONIER-KOMPANIE (motorisiert) KStN 712 dated 01.11.1943 Motorized Pionieer Company
PIONIER-KOMPANIE (gepanzert) KStN 714 dated 01.11.1943 Armored Pionieer Company

Here are some more (graphic) KStNs for various Pionier units, though not a Sturm Pionier Kompanie. Follow the link on the webpage "Kriegsstärkenachweise".

Hope that helps you a bit.

von Marwitz
Seems like a good start for his inquiries. Very helpful as always!🤗
 
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Again, thx very much for the replies!

Just spent pretty much the whole morning reading through the links & trying to draw some conclusions. How time flies! I also stumbled upon this thread which I found very interesting ..

https://blog.sturmpanzer.com/german-assault-engineer-battalion-organization/

In general, it seems there were two broad categories of pioneers (as previously mentioned): assault engineers & bridge building engineers. According to info provided in the links, very broadly speaking, they had two or three additional men as compared to a standard infantry squad (and at least one reference to a 10-man SQD which would be no different from infantry, and another reference to an 11 man SQD) ... I'm assuming that the decrease from 3 extra men to no extra men would be due to war casualties & lack of replacements. It also seems that the bridge builder types were otherwise armed exactly as a standard infantry squad with the extra men being riflemen, and in the case of the assault engineers, at least two of the extra men were SMGs. In the link above, it mentioned 21 SMGs per company (hence 7 per platoon and thus 2 extra SMG per squad, not counting squad leader) .. though it also lists 2 or 4 "S. MG" (not sure what the difference between a SMG and S.MG is? .. I presume SMG indicate MP40s). Hence, in ASL terms, I would rate German Pioneers with two different squad types: a 568 bridge builder pioneer and a 668 sturm pioneer squad (differing drastically from the 838 rated pioneer squad). In any case, they're still mostly riflemen as opposed to SMG men which is what I found most interesting to begin with.

Again, thanks for the info links & have a great day!
 

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Occasionally the Germans would create assault groups with extra automatic weapons. The 838 should be reserved for those cases.

The KStns indicate a lot of lmgs in the pioneer units. 548s with lots of lmgs would be the way to depict them in ASL
 

M.Koch

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Anyway, the 838's are fluff and should be seldom used outside Stalingrad scenarios... if any.
Simple Pionier units are not combat troops in the first. Imo they are better depicted by 2nd line units. Sturmpioniere are different, but even then they are 467/468/548.
 

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Anyway, the 838's are fluff and should be seldom used outside Stalingrad scenarios... if any.
Simple Pionier units are not combat troops in the first. Imo they are better depicted by 2nd line units. Sturmpioniere are different, but even then they are 467/468/548.
8-3-8 like 8-4-7 that candy that got you addicted to SL sweets. Then ASL comes along and you're put on a diet. 😔
 
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Several of those Kstns that I read through the other day were panzer/motorized. I noticed that they also listed "drivers" and vehicles as part of the inherent squad/truppe (a halftrack or truck, in addition to the extra LMG). Seems to me, the extra LMG was probably vehicle mounted (presumably). In ASL, squads are separate entities from vehicles. So, I would assume (in ASL terms) that most squads still have single-LMGs, and if they actually do have an "extra" LMG (thus 3 LMGs if including the vehicle mounted one) then these should be best represented by extra LMG counters in the OB (otherwise a panzer pioneer squad would be something like an 8-6-8 monster with 2 "inherent" LMGs accounting for 5 to six of those factors). I would like to see some historical references as to heavily laden SMG- armed sturmpioneers. Seems to me, that these cases are probably "ad hoc" battle-situational in nature and were not meant to be actual TOE type changes in the army as a whole (in my opinion). It that's true, then these particular use-cases should probably be 738s or 638s (but I'd have to see some kind of squad level historical reference before I could estimate the best strength factor one way or the other ... in any case, it seems that the original 838 of SL is over valued (when viewed from today's eyes) .. but I completely understand why that value was originally developed in the SL system of the 70s, as SL was then designed with 4s as a base: 4, 6, 8, 12, 16 factors. So, an otherwise SMG-laden 6 FP squad with an "inherent" 8-1 leader would be exactly the same as 8 FP on the IFT as far as the "numbers" go. ASL more or less diverged from that route with the IIFT, 5 factor squads, reducing 847s to 747s, and most significantly, improving the German LMG from 2-8 to 3-8 (which I completely understand as the MG42 was overwhelmingly superior compared to all other nations LMGs). With the LMG change especially, a strong case could be made that the German base squad of 467 should be 567: 3 FP of that being LMG and 2 FP being everyone else (mostly rifles and & one lone SMG held by the squad leader). Of course, that'll never happen IMO. While we're on that topic, it probably would've been better to rate US army squads with 5 FP (maybe 5 vs 6 range??) and include BARs as a separate SW. I would rate a BAR 1-5 or 1-6, spraying fire, no ROF, and additive to CC strength .. up to normal usage levels anyway, which would be 1 SW. So, a basic US army squad would still have 6 factors in CC .. those 5 to 7 factor USMC squads would be -1 FP but gain some BARs in the OB.

Anyway, it's just speculative food-for-thought.
Take it easy, rk
 

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Several of those Kstns that I read through the other day were panzer/motorized. I noticed that they also listed "drivers" and vehicles as part of the inherent squad/truppe (a halftrack or truck, in addition to the extra LMG). Seems to me, the extra LMG was probably vehicle mounted (presumably). In ASL, squads are separate entities from vehicles. So, I would assume (in ASL terms) that most squads still have single-LMGs, and if they actually do have an "extra" LMG (thus 3 LMGs if including the vehicle mounted one) then these should be best represented by extra LMG counters in the OB (otherwise a panzer pioneer squad would be something like an 8-6-8 monster with 2 "inherent" LMGs accounting for 5 to six of those factors). I would like to see some historical references as to heavily laden SMG- armed sturmpioneers. Seems to me, that these cases are probably "ad hoc" battle-situational in nature and were not meant to be actual TOE type changes in the army as a whole (in my opinion). It that's true, then these particular use-cases should probably be 738s or 638s (but I'd have to see some kind of squad level historical reference before I could estimate the best strength factor one way or the other ... in any case, it seems that the original 838 of SL is over valued (when viewed from today's eyes) .. but I completely understand why that value was originally developed in the SL system of the 70s, as SL was then designed with 4s as a base: 4, 6, 8, 12, 16 factors. So, an otherwise SMG-laden 6 FP squad with an "inherent" 8-1 leader would be exactly the same as 8 FP on the IFT as far as the "numbers" go. ASL more or less diverged from that route with the IIFT, 5 factor squads, reducing 847s to 747s, and most significantly, improving the German LMG from 2-8 to 3-8 (which I completely understand as the MG42 was overwhelmingly superior compared to all other nations LMGs). With the LMG change especially, a strong case could be made that the German base squad of 467 should be 567: 3 FP of that being LMG and 2 FP being everyone else (mostly rifles and & one lone SMG held by the squad leader). Of course, that'll never happen IMO. While we're on that topic, it probably would've been better to rate US army squads with 5 FP (maybe 5 vs 6 range??) and include BARs as a separate SW. I would rate a BAR 1-5 or 1-6, spraying fire, no ROF, and additive to CC strength .. up to normal usage levels anyway, which would be 1 SW. So, a basic US army squad would still have 6 factors in CC .. those 5 to 7 factor USMC squads would be -1 FP but gain some BARs in the OB.

Anyway, it's just speculative food-for-thought.
Take it easy, rk
The very small historical accuracy part of me has thought in the past that the squad representation was too homogeneous, all 6-6-6 or 4-6-7 not really reflecting the condition of the units. 6-5-6, 5-6-7 and the like better at doing this.

The very large gamer part of me thought just learn the rules and play with what is provided. That part won.😉
 

Michael Dorosh

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You should note that there is a difference in Assault Engineers (Sturm Pioniere) and Engineers (Pioniere, i.e. the ones who build bridges & stuff). Furthermore, much depends on the timeframe and the type of deployment.
Also a difference between divisional engineers and regimental engineers. The former were called Black Engineers because their branch of service colour (waffenfarbe) was black. The pioneers employed directly in the regiments (infantry, panzergrenadier, mountain troops, etc.) wore the waffenfarbe of those regiments. In an infantry regiment, that was white, etc.

A basic overview of both, in the context of an infantry division, is provided in Alex Buchner's GERMAN INFANTRY HANDBOOK
 
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