C7.346: DC vs. AFV - sanity check

Bill Kohler

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I believe C7.346 plays as follows . . .

A: If I place a DC vs. a partially armored AFV through an unarmored target facing, the DC Position DR is skipped altogether and the attack is resolved solely on the IFT--and this is true even if the target is only unarmored in the turret. The AFV, however, still has to be predesignated as the target of the DC attack.

B: If the final Position DR for a DC thrown/placed against an AFV is < 12, then no other units in the AFV's hex (aside from the PRC of the attacked AFV) are affected--and this is true even if a thrown DC hits an AFV in an unarmored target facing.

C: Regardless of the DC Position DR, units in the thrower's location are always attacked by the DC blast (with the usual +3/+4 DRM). [Assuming the DC doesn't malfunction.]

D: If a Japanese unit places/throws a DC against an enemy AFV in its own Location, then . . .
--If the DC is placed, and the Position DR is < 12, then only the AFV and its PRC are affected; if the Position DR is 12 or more, then the AFV is immune but all other enemy units in that Location face an Area Fire attack with a new DR. (Japanese units are unaffected--if I'm reading G1.612 correctly.)
--If the DC is thrown, and the Position DR is < 12, then not only is the AFV affected, but also all Japanese units in the Location face the usual thrown DC (+3 DRM) attack with a new DR. If the Position DR is 12 or more, then the Japanese units are affected as before, the AFV is immune, and all other enemy units in that Location face an Area Fire attack with a new DR.

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C7.346 DC: The resolution of a Placed/Thrown DC attack vs an armored target (A23.5) requires a Position DR to determine the AF to be applied. The DC Position DR also serves as the hit location DR (C3.9). If placed through an unarmored target facing, make an IFT (rather than a To Kill) DR vs the vehicle as if it were unarmored (A7.308). Any Collateral Attack(s) thus obtained by a Final Position DR = 9 (and therefore prior to a To Kill DR) must use a new DR.

DC Position DR
<=5 Optimally Positioned.
6-8 Successfully Positioned.
9-11 Poorly Positioned.*
12+ No Effect vs. AFV or its PRC.@

* - Resolve vs target's vulnerable PRC as a Specific Collateral Attack.
@ - Resolve only vs other unarmored units in AFV's Location, and as an Area Fire attack (as well as vs any in Thrower's Location; A23.6).

A23.3 Placement: A DC is Placed on an ADJACENT target Location during the MPh by a carrying Infantry unit expending extra MF (in the hex the DC is Placed from) equal to the number of MF it would require that unit to directly enter that target Location were it to do so during that MPh without Bypass (see Wire; B26.45). The act of Placing the DC is considered movement expended in the Placement hex (the hex occupied by the Placing unit - not the hex in which the DC is actually Placed) and therefore a unit could remain entrenched the entire time, but cannot Place a DC if it fired during the PFPh or was pinned prior to Placement during that MPh. Furthermore, if an enemy AFV occupies the target Location, most Placing units must pass a PAATC (A11.6) in order to Place the DC. Should the Placing unit survive (unbroken and unpinned, even if newly berserk) all enemy Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire, and FPF in the Placement Hex (including any resulting from the expenditure of MF in the Placement of that DC), the weapon is considered operably Placed. Thereafter, the Placing unit may move away or suffer adverse results with no effect to the DC. However, if the Placing unit is broken, pinned, or eliminated before or during Placement, the DC is not operably Placed, remains with the Placing unit (or in the Placing unit's Location if the unit is eliminated), and may not attack - although it is still usable for future Recovery/Placement attempts. A unit may not Place (or Throw; A2.36) a DC to an adjacent Location out of its LOS (A7.21) [EXC: Cave; G11.8331].

A23.5 vs AFV: In order for a DC attack (as with any ordnance Direct Fire vs a Location containing an AFV in combination with unarmored targets) to affect an AFV, it must be predesignated as being made against the AFV. A DC can affect an AFV only if it is the primary target of that DC attack. If the attacker chooses to attack the AFV, he does so on the C7.34 HE & Flame To Kill Table using the DC column - but only after a special DC Position DR (C7.346). A DC Placed/Thrown from within the same hex attacks the Rear Target Facing of an AFV. Otherwise, the Target Facing of the AFV is based on the hexside through which the DC was Placed/Thrown, even if the AFV changes its CA prior to the detonation of the DC in the AFPh.

A23.6 Throwing: A DC may be Thrown (thereby constituting use of a SW; A7.35) into an adjacent Location in its LOS - including down to the next lower level of the Thrower's hex via a stairwell - or down (e.g., from an upper-level building Location or across a cliff hexside) to the ground-level, in-LOS Location of an adjacent hex, or to the ground level of a non-Interior Building hex from a higher level Location of that hex (even though there may be intervening building levels) by any unpinned, Good Order or berserk Personnel capable of SW use during any friendly fire phase (or Defensive First--or Final--Fire) instead of Placed during the owner's MPh. However, a Thrown DC is less accurate than a Placed DC and may not be Thrown to a full-level higher elevation. A Thrown DC must add an additional +2 DRM (+3 if Thrown from a non-stopped/Motion vehicle or by Cavalry) to the attack resolution [EXC: vs an AFV the +2/+3 DRM applies to the DC Position DR instead; C7.346] in the target Location, and is resolved immediately on the 30 FP column. Since the Throwing range of a DC is less than its blast radius (and since a wide variety of results can occur - including the target tossing it back), both the target's and thrower's Locations are immediately attacked by the DC; the Thrower's Location receives a +3 DRM (+4 if Thrown from a non-stopped/Motion vehicle/Cavalry) [EXC: If a DC is Thrown from an elevation two or more levels higher than the target, the Throwing level is not affected by the DC unless it rubbles the lower level (B24.11)]. A separate DR is used to resolve the attack of a Thrown DC on each Location. A DC Thrown from an AFV does not affect it, but does attack any Vulnerable PRC of that AFV.

A23.61: A DC may not be Thrown, or Placed in, the same Location occupied by the unit possessing it - unless the unit is Japanese or the target is a vehicle in Bypass in the same Location as the Placing/Throwing unit. In such a case, the Placement cost is always one MF; the DRM for a Thrown DC remains the same.

G1.612 DC: If otherwise able and allowed to, Japanese [EXC: DC Hero; see 1.424] may Place/Throw, DC into their own Location (A23.61). A DC Placed in the normal manner (A23.3) but in its possessor's own Location can attack only enemy/Melee units (A7.4) and terrain/Fortifications. Any DC attack (including MPh detonation; 1.424) made vs an AFV in the same Location as the unit possessing that DC requires a Target Facing dr (D3.2) and a Position DR (C7.346). See also 1.424.
 
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Larry

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B. If the unit is attacked through a non-armored facing, it is treated as an unarmored target. No position DR needed.
 

Bill Kohler

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B. If the unit is attacked through a non-armored facing, it is treated as an unarmored target. No position DR needed.
C7.346 says "The resolution of a Placed/Thrown DC attack vs an armored target . . . If placed through an unarmored target facing, make an IFT (rather than a To Kill) DR vs the vehicle as if it were unarmored (A7.308)."

Notice it uses the term "placed", which with respect to DCs is a very specific word: in the context of C7.346, which explicitly references both Placed and Thrown, I can only infer that--in the latter sentence quoted just above--it means "not thrown". So throwing a DC against an unarmored target facing must need a DC Position DR.

(Note: What makes me doubt myself is that the associated table is called the "DC Position DR" table in the rules, but it's also called the "DC Placement vs AFV DR" table in the dividers. Since there's a lax use of the word "placement" in the divider table heading, perhaps there's a lax use of the word "placed" in C7.346 proper.)
 
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Bill Kohler

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This unit is treated as an armored target unless specifically attacked through a non-armored.
But A23.5 says: A DC can affect an AFV only if it is the primary target of that DC attack.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure it overrides A23.5. I suspect an AFV still has to be designated as the target of a DC.

(I'm not sure, though. I'd be more inclined to accept your interpretation if C7.346 hadn't made a distinction between Thrown DCs and Placed DCs when used against the unarmored facing of a partially armored AFV, per my post just before this one.)

Thank you for your responses!
 
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Bill Kohler

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I'm contemplating sending this Q&A to MMP:

C7.346, A23.5 DC attacks vs AFVs:
Q1: If a DC is placed on an AFV through an unarmored target facing, is the DC Position DR skipped altogether and the attack resolved solely on the IFT?

Q2: Is the same true if the AFV is unarmored only in the turret?

Q3: If placing the DC through an unarmored facing, must the AFV still be predesignated (A23.5)?

Q4: C7.346 says, If placed through an unarmored target facing, make an IFT (rather than a To Kill) DR vs the vehicle as if it were unarmored (A7.308). Is the same true if the DC is thrown rather than placed?

Q5: When a thrown/placed DC Position DR vs an enemy AFV is < 12, are all other enemy units in the AFV hex (aside from the AFV and its PRC) immune to the blast of the DC?

Q6: When a thrown DC Position DR is < 12, are the units in the thrower's location still attacked by the DC blast (with the usual +3/+4 DRM), (assuming of course no malfunction)?

---------------
Thoughts?

I'm now thinking that the answers are yes to all (although Q3 might be no).
 
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nekengren2

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WHY would Japanese ever THROW a DC in its own hex? PLACE would seem to be the single choice for my crazy in hex Hero.

Adding to the story.................The in-hex placement would always be against the REAR target facing (D3.2). No idea if there are AFV with armored rears but unarmored fronts.
 

von Marwitz

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WHY would Japanese ever THROW a DC in its own hex? PLACE would seem to be the single choice for my crazy in hex Hero.

Why indeed?

Per 1.424 DC HERO: ...
Any unbroken Japanese Infantry unit possessing a DC may, in lieu of Placing it in the normal manner (A23.3; 1.612), detonate it immediately during or at the end of its own MPh in the same manner as a DC Hero (and consequently is eliminated as per 1.425).

There is no need to throw it in its own hex at all, as it can simply detonate it without extra MF expenditure and the benefit that it detonates as 'placed'. This has three benefits:
  • The DC will detonate immediately (not in the APFh if it were placed normally, which may allow follow up units to pass through the hex if the target is eliminated)
  • The DC will be more effective as it detonates 'as placed' rather than 'thrown'
  • Not needing any MF expenditure placing or throwing it might spare your Japanse a Residual FP attack or a follow-up attack by other enemy units.
On the other hand If the DC were thrown, then the Japanese would have a chance to survive. If they are in high TEM, say a 9-1 and 448, then your Japanese might gamble that they don't blow them up to kill themselves but rather pass some morale checks or merely get striped which your opponent's lousy 666 US squad likely won't. So there are situations thinkable in which throwing into its own loacation might make sense for the Japanese.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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Adding to the story.................The in-hex placement would always be against the REAR target facing (D3.2). No idea if there are AFV with armored rears but unarmored fronts.
A sarcastic jick would suggest checking those nationalities who have fairly or unfairly acquired a reputation to retreat. 🙄
 

nekengren2

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Why indeed?

Per 1.424 DC HERO: ...
Any unbroken Japanese Infantry unit possessing a DC may, in lieu of Placing it in the normal manner (A23.3; 1.612), detonate it immediately during or at the end of its own MPh in the same manner as a DC Hero (and consequently is eliminated as per 1.425).

There is no need to throw it in its own hex at all, as it can simply detonate it without extra MF expenditure and the benefit that it detonates as 'placed'. This has three benefits:
  • The DC will detonate immediately (not in the APFh if it were placed normally, which may allow follow up units to pass through the hex if the target is eliminated)
  • The DC will be more effective as it detonates 'as placed' rather than 'thrown'
  • Not needing any MF expenditure placing or throwing it might spare your Japanse a Residual FP attack or a follow-up attack by other enemy units.
On the other hand If the DC were thrown, then the Japanese would have a chance to survive. If they are in high TEM, say a 9-1 and 448, then your Japanese might gamble that they don't blow them up to kill themselves but rather pass some morale checks or merely get striped which your opponent's lousy 666 US squad likely won't. So there are situations thinkable in which throwing into its own loacation might make sense for the Japanese.

von Marwitz
oh man. gonna have to practice my throwing arm.
 

Actionjick

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I got to thinking about throwing a DC into an adjacent Location so I checked out some info.
A satchel charge weighed @ 8.8 pounds, roughly the same as a women's shot put. A shot put throw of 50 feet by a woman is considered good. Men's shot put @ 16 pounds and a throw of 60 feet is considered very good.

I'm dubious that a 8.8 pound satchel charge could be thrown into an adjacent location but would like to hear others opinions on this.
 

Actionjick

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I got to thinking about throwing a DC into an adjacent Location so I checked out some info.
A satchel charge weighed @ 8.8 pounds, roughly the same as a women's shot put. A shot put throw of 50 feet by a woman is considered good. Men's shot put @ 16 pounds and a throw of 60 feet is considered very good.

I'm dubious that a 8.8 pound satchel charge could be thrown into an adjacent location but would like to hear others opinions on this.
While taking my bath I realized the hammer throw would be a better comparison than the shot put. Further research is needed. 🙄😉
 

Chris Bryer

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While taking my bath I realized the hammer throw would be a better comparison than the shot put. Further research is needed. 🙄😉
It must be assumed that the mmc had to hustle all the way over to the opposite hexside in order to toss the DC into the ADJACENT location. I say this due to the requirement to expend more MF as if entering that hex to get the DC into the location. It even give defenders the extra shot(s)as if the enemy entered the intended hex.

I don't know but it seems like one of the more beautiful rules in the infantry game.
 

Actionjick

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It must be assumed that the mmc had run hustle all the way over to the opposite hexside in order to toss the DC into the ADJACENT location. I say this due to the requirement to expend more MF as if entering that hex. It give defenders that extra shot(s).

I dont know but it seems like one of the more beautiful rules in the infantry game.
I'll buy that explanation! Good job.😉
 

Chris Bryer

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That's why DC guys really don't have a great track record of successful placement. Especially into Fortified locations. even 838's are regularly gunned down.
 

Bill Kohler

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C7.346, A23.5 - DC Attacks vs. AFVs
---------------------------------------

Q1: If a DC is placed on an AFV through an unarmored target facing, is the DC Position DR skipped altogether and the attack resolved solely on the IFT?
--No; Position DR made but then attacked on IFT.

Q2: Is the same true if the AFV is unarmored only in the turret?
--Yes.

Q3: If placing the DC through an unarmored facing, must the AFV still be predesignated (A23.5)?
--Yes.

Q4: C7.346 says, If placed through an unarmored target facing, make an IFT (rather than a To Kill) DR vs the vehicle as if it were unarmored (A7.308). Is the same true if the DC is thrown rather than placed?
--Yes.

Q5: When a thrown/placed DC Position DR vs an enemy AFV is < 12, are all other enemy units in the AFV hex (aside from the AFV and its PRC) immune to the blast of the DC?
--Yes.

Q6: When a thrown DC Position DR is < 12, are the units in the thrower's location still attacked by the DC blast (with the usual +3/+4 DRM), (assuming of course no malfunction)?
--Yes.

....Perry
 
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