Is this cheating?

Is using the VASL "Map Annotations" feature, with its arrows and labeling, etc, HIPPED cheating?

  • YES - but it's like a little white lie.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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Cpl Uhl

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Does using the VASL "Map Annotations" feature, with its arrows and labeling, etc, HIPPED constitute cheating?

16455
 

TopT

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Does using the VASL "Map Annotations" feature, with its arrows and labeling, etc, HIPPED constitute cheating?
Is this so that you can envisage your plan of attack?
If that is the case I say absolutely not.
 

von Marwitz

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Does using the VASL "Map Annotations" feature, with its arrows and labeling, etc, HIPPED constitute cheating?

View attachment 16455
This is not cheating.

(But I do not like the "anything goes" addition to the "NO" option. Not 'anything goes', but this should not be linked to the option in the poll.)

When you play FtF, the process of reading through the scenario, making a setup and a plan for attack is oftentimes closely linked in time. So usually, you won't forget what you have just planned a few minutes earlier.

This is often different in VASL. You complete a game, maybe agree on the next scenario to play. Then one of the opponents creates a VASL files and usually his defensive setup. This is sent to the 'attacking' opponent who then makes is offensive setup. When both opponents meet on the VASL server, all which is left to do is to place Snipers and to commence the game. At least this is standard operating procedure in my personal experience over the last 10 years with many different opponents.

Now between making your defensive setup and/or offensive setup and the game finally starting might lie days of even weeks of time. During this period, you may have well forgotten what your 'plan' was back then. This is all the more true if you play several scenarios with different opponents in parallel. In addition to that, opposed to FtF games, a game via the VASL server is very often not completed in a single session - often it is resumed one week later, same day, same time. After a busy week, I doubt that you remember what you perfectly knew when were concluding your last session.

What you describe is bridging this issues exactly that do not exist in a FtF game.
So I say, all fine with that, no cheating at all.

von Marwitz
 

Honosbinda

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Mutually agreed ONLY. Especially if a tournament. There are no HIP rules for lines of attack in this game, just because it's VASL. Anything DOES NOT go.

None of these visualizations are particularly difficult, so why the necessity? Everyone has to play FtF without drawing lines on the mapboard.
 

Sparafucil3

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None of these visualizations are particularly difficult, so why the necessity? Everyone has to play FtF without drawing lines on the mapboard.
When I play face-to-face, I don't have to wait a couple of days to play like I often do with VASL. I don't use the map annotations, but I have been known to HIP a SMOKE counter or an AFV counter that I want to make sure I get to that position. I would be a little concerned the annotations might give away LOS but the AFV / SMOKE counter HIP doesn't do anything like that. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
 

Honosbinda

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When I play face-to-face, I don't have to wait a couple of days to play like I often do with VASL. I don't use the map annotations, but I have been known to HIP a SMOKE counter or an AFV counter that I want to make sure I get to that position. I would be a little concerned the annotations might give away LOS but the AFV / SMOKE counter HIP doesn't do anything like that. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
Do you explain this to your partner that you are doing this and offer the suggestion they do they same thing? That would be most sportsmanlike. I wouldn't necessarily like stuff being HIP that is not legally HIP per the rulebook if I didn't get the same chance to make it easy on myself.

It's true that in a campaign game it's easier to HIP counters offboard while formulating the force purchases, and can really be efficient if, for example, the opponent needs to specify pre-setup of fortifications and/or pre-registration hexes and there is already a setup on the map. HIP the entire setup and then then let the opponent do so, then un hip it. But this is all mutually agreed upon.

I know we've gone way beyond VASL being anything like the real game. I suppose, for example, that using the acquisition counter matching (alt-shift-L) is easier than using acquisition counters and isn't as difficult as using the labels. Still, that function isn't HIP and if the opponent objects, then it shouldn't be allowed. Same for making snipers look small and transparent. That's not how it looks in the real game, but it does make it easier to play.

Basically, though, I am not in favor of being allowed to HIP stuff unless it is normally unknown to the opponent per the rules. People want to draw lines of attack? Fine, get a Cave Complex Setup Sheet and draw until content. Mark the desired tank locations there, mark the desired smoke locations there. Bring the handwritten drawing to the computer table.

Of course, nothing can stop someone from making the drawings on VASL, printing it out, then deleting it as HIP and using the hard copy for the attack plan. But I think even this is against the spirit of the rules. When playing ftf, one doesn't get to have a 'dummy/copycat' map sitting off to the side under the table with one's desired openings!
 

TopT

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They are just a reminder of what you want to do -nothing more. They do not, at all, change anything in the playing of the scenario. They give that person zero gain AND once the opponent starts firing, they are probably worthless.

You could tell your opponent that you have the arrows HIP'd but I would not remove them if my opponent said no. I would say that I am just telling you as a courtesy. The rules do not say anything about VASL (I think).
 

WuWei

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When playing ftf, one doesn't get to have a 'dummy/copycat' map sitting off to the side under the table with one's desired openings!
Why not? I did that when playing Sand&Blood as the American attacker. It speeds up play enormously and increases the fun for everyone!
 

Sparafucil3

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But I think even this is against the spirit of the rules. When playing ftf, one doesn't get to have a 'dummy/copycat' map sitting off to the side under the table with one's desired openings!
How are you hurt in any way by this? If anything, I think you benefit from a better game. Comparing VASL to F-t-F is a poor comparison. I can promise you, if I set up to attack playing Face-to-Face, I would take notes about how and why I set up and my plan of attack if for some reason we decided to leave it set up to play next week. Again, JMO, YMMV. -- jim
 

von Marwitz

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Do you explain this to your partner that you are doing this and offer the suggestion they do they same thing? That would be most sportsmanlike. I wouldn't necessarily like stuff being HIP that is not legally HIP per the rulebook if I didn't get the same chance to make it easy on myself.
I do not even see any necessity to point this out to my opponent the same way I would not even occur to me to expect an opponent to inform me that he has been taking notes on paper. Nor can I remember ever having been formally informed by an opponent in a FtF game that he 'took notes' for his attack plan. For me this whole thing does not even touch sportsmanship whatsoever.

With regard to HIP:
In such arrows, etc. I do not see any game piece being part of the opponent's OoB being HIP in excess of what he is allowed by a scenario. An arrow or a HIP Note nor a written paper side-note is not a game-piece. It is simply not touched by the rules the same way that dice-towers, precision dice or the means by which you fix overlays on a board is not touched by the rules. With regard to the rules, all this is irrelevant.

Now, if you would take notes of important LOSes on a side sheet which you are not entitled to take (i.e. not being the Scenario Defender, No Bore Sighting, etc.), that would be cheating. But the cheating would be the act of stringing the LOSes, which you are not entitled to take.


How do you think about reading an AAR in an ASL Journal of a scenario that you play later? Wouldn't this offer even more of an advantage rather to make notes of one's attack plan? Could you ever play that scenario after reading the AAR? Or could you allow yourself reading that AAR only after playing that scenario?

What if you observe other players playing a scenario at a tournament or on the VASL server? Wouldn't this give you an undue advantage over your opponent were you to play this scenario later? Would you be required to inform your opponent that you observed (part of) the scenario being played?

What if you played a scenario, later attend a tournament in which that scenario happens to be part of the selection. Your opponent happens to remark that he has not played it before but it sure looks fun? Do you need to inform him? If yes, and then? Do you need to give him the balance?

What if you playtested a scenario?

The list could go on and on.


To me all this illustrates pretty clearly 'information requirements' appear quite absurd and over the top. This includes the taking of notes, written on paper or VASL'ized arrows etc. And if anyone would call the taking of notes 'cheating', with what justification could he call any of the other examples provided 'not cheating'?


von Marwitz
 
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Cpl Uhl

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Personally, I think NO, if agreed before hand.

I find it speeds up the game and makes for better play. Of course, VASL only.

But I'd totally understand it if someone didn't want it done.
Is this so that you can envisage your plan of attack?
If that is the case I say absolutely not.
Yes ,exactly that.
 
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Vinnie

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I don't have a problem with notes.
I'm not keen on the arrows as thst give potential advantages in calculating Los. I'd have no problem with hipping a counter saying "AFV here turn 2 to smoke G7" providing G7 was not a dodgy Los
 

apbills

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as long as they're HIP and I don't have to constantly "clear" the board to see the terrain, I see no problem. Put all the notes/arrows/notations you want.
 

Sparafucil3

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I don't have a problem with notes.
I'm not keen on the arrows as thst give potential advantages in calculating Los. I'd have no problem with hipping a counter saying "AFV here turn 2 to smoke G7" providing G7 was not a dodgy Los
Saying I want an tank here has nothing to do with measuring LOS just to be clear. At least not how I do it. -- jim
 

Houlie

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I have no problem if an opponent wants to make notes on the board regarding his battle plan as long as there is no LOS being traced. Frankly, it probably speeds up play. I say, rock on.
 

Robin Reeve

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It is fine to do that.
It seems easier than writing side notes or printing the map and scribbling on it.
 

bprobst

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This is not cheating.

(But I do not like the "anything goes" addition to the "NO" option. Not 'anything goes', but this should not be linked to the option in the poll.)
I agree completely. No it's not cheating, however the poll is flawed because "anything goes" absolutely IS cheating (or at least could be). Nor is "mutual agreement" required.

As long as you're not drawing LOS, fill every hex with pages of (HIP) annotation if you want to. As long as you're not forcing your opponent to stare at it, it's cool.

I do not even see any necessity to point this out to my opponent the same way I would not even occur to me to expect an opponent to inform me that he has been taking notes on paper. Nor can I remember ever having been formally informed by an opponent in a FtF game that he 'took notes' for his attack plan. For me this whole thing does not even touch sportsmanship whatsoever.
Again, agree completely. The idea that my opponent might even challenge me about taking notes (again, so long as there's no actual drawing of LOS involved) is so bizarre I don't believe anyone would ever actually do it.

What if you played a scenario, later attend a tournament in which that scenario happens to be part of the selection. Your opponent happens to remark that he has not played it before but it sure looks fun? Do you need to inform him? If yes, and then? Do you need to give him the balance? What if you playtested a scenario?
Well, er. I do think it's fair and "sportsmanlike" to let your opponent know that you've played a scenario before, I go further and tell him what side I played and what the result was (assuming that I can remember!). Ditto playtesting. Having prior experience of a particular scenario is an advantage, if not always a big one. I would not offer balance solely for that reason though. (If I thought the scenario was an unbalanced dog, but my opponent really wants to play it and furthermore wants the disadvantaged side, I'd be happy to offer balance. My preference, though, would be play something new to both of us!)
 

Honosbinda

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They are just a reminder of what you want to do -nothing more. They do not, at all, change anything in the playing of the scenario. They give that person zero gain AND once the opponent starts firing, they are probably worthless.

You could tell your opponent that you have the arrows HIP'd but I would not remove them if my opponent said no. I would say that I am just telling you as a courtesy. The rules do not say anything about VASL (I think).
It's true the rules don't say anything about using VASL to play. However, VASL only exists to recreate the play of ASL. Not something else. So there is no reason to pursue an argument along those lines with you. There is no possible way, nor do the rules allow any possible way, to make HIP markings on the map in a real (not virtual) game of ASL. Therefore, I say that in a tournament, it not be permitted unless there is mutual agreement. It can slow down the game, for one thing. And if any of you have been to an ftf tournament, you'll know that time is of the essence. I'm all in favor of keeping the game as close to ASL as possible, especially in a tournament.

How are you hurt in any way by this? If anything, I think you benefit from a better game. Comparing VASL to F-t-F is a poor comparison. I can promise you, if I set up to attack playing Face-to-Face, I would take notes about how and why I set up and my plan of attack if for some reason we decided to leave it set up to play next week. Again, JMO, YMMV. -- jim
There are a lot of ways it could suck. For instance, what if my opponent insists on plotting every move like this for every turn? How much time do I want to sit around waiting for a supposedly better game -- which is highly debatable-- that if someone has to do this, that's going to make them better at gameplay. Better gameplay is through playing the game per the rules, not with virtual scaffolding of dotted lines that are HIP.

VASL PBeM might be a poor comparison, but not VASL live.

Online VASL shouldn't take any longer to play because my opponent is manipulating illegal (that is, not permitted HIP or cloaking by the rules) HIP constructs as a play aid. Remember I am talking about tournament play here, not casual play. Any tournament director worth his salt shouldn't allow unnecessary delays, but there are tournament directors, and there are tournament directors.

I can tell you, though, that if I was sitting around waiting for all this virtual prepping all the time, I'd find another opponent. YMMV, as you like to say. As for PBeM, it's a different animal, nothing can stop anyone from doing what they want and plotting the hell out of their moves beforehand.


Why not? I did that when playing Sand&Blood as the American attacker. It speeds up play enormously and increases the fun for everyone!
Did you inform your opponent and if they agreed, then why not, sure. If they didn't, there are a lot of reasons for why not, and you should know that as a tournament director. Do you allow this sort of thing in your rules of play for the VASL tournament? I didn't notice that you had, but maybe I missed it.

To me all this illustrates pretty clearly 'information requirements' appear quite absurd and over the top. This includes the taking of notes, written on paper or VASL'ized arrows etc. And if anyone would call the taking of notes 'cheating', with what justification could he call any of the other examples provided 'not cheating'?


von Marwitz
Of course information requirements matter in playing a tournament game face to face as they do in VASL live. It's not permitted by the rules. Although there are some players who don't care about the rules, as absurd and over the top that is. The rules do actually mention note-taking for HIP. The rules do actually discuss cloaking and how and when it is permitted. They don't discuss HIPing everything under the sun for the sake of one player's convenience. Any of us can ignore this obvious fact, but ignorance doesn't make it not so. Mutually agreement should be the order of the day.


I have no problem if an opponent wants to make notes on the board regarding his battle plan as long as there is no LOS being traced. Frankly, it probably speeds up play. I say, rock on.
Well, sure. If you agreed and your opponent disclosed it. That goes for all of us who agree that disclosure is necessary. But obviously some people don't think that manipulating files beyond the scope of the rules doesn't need to be informed or agreed upon. I say absolutely it must be disclosed and agreed upon in a tournament game (perhaps not PBeM). VASL is about playing ASL, not some other game.

As for what the rest of you want to do in non-tournament play, I care not other than I expect the opportunity for mutual agreement. But there should be specific and meaningful standards for what is allowed in tournament play that everyone abides by. This seems obvious to me in spite of some people shrugging their shoulders about it.

cheers!
 
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Carln0130

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I don't see it as cheating, but it's not going to do you any good either. If you have Hipped reminders, it won't make your plan to get there from here any better.

I'm old school in that regard. You don't use such mechanisms in FTF, so I don't here. Other things like the terrain alterations that VASL allows and marking Victory hexes isn't there in FtF either, but those mutually aid both players.

Anyway, much ado about nothing me thinks. Anything goes? Hell no.
 
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