Red October CG-II (RO-CGII)

stuh42asl

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FYI, we're gonna restart. I will try to use lessons learned from this thread to make Stalin proud. Wish me luck. :)
Recently I have been researching the actual Hall 4. There are three things of great importance for the Russian s that are not included.
  1. The Martin (short form I am using) ovens were thick steel boxes that provided pillboxes, for the Russian defenders, these provided protection from the artillery and direct fire. Now these were also connected via tunnels through the debris and fighting positions.
  2. There was a ditch that ran down the middle of the main, hall, to provide water for the furnaces, it was deep enough to provide protection as well. Daily battle reports show the trench was used to also provide protection and a hiding place for Russian troops.
  3. There was a tunnel (not a sewer link, but an actual tunnel) that ran from the finger gully the farthest east point of Hall 4 Most of the later re-inforcements that came to the Red October factory used this tunnel. It was hidden from view in the gully, and unless you were adjacent to it in the Hall you would never see it.
This is the main reason Hall 4 seems to fall so quickly. There are 14 ovens in the hall, 11 that ran 2/3 of the way along the north wall and 3 that ran along the south east wall. They are not used, so once the factory is roofless, there was little in the way of protection, when actually these ovens were used extensively for cover, as was the trench. On the map there are 6 hexes with the smoke stacks. These can be turned into a pillbox+trench hex and the ditch becomes a regular trench. I know the rules state that fortifications cannot exist in factory debris. But from what I see a linear barrage along the entire length of the hall stands to clear out a lot of the defenders, which does not follow the actual battle reports. So after careful consideration I made up my own house rules for the hall:

Martin Oven trench hex.: Capacity = 2 sqds + sw's + ldr's,
TEM = (with roof) +3TEM , +6 versus OBA
(no roof)= +3TEM +5 versus OBA.
The high mod versus OBA is due to the debris and the thick steel walls and doors of the ovens.

Ditch =Capacity = 1 sqd + sw + ldr,
+3TEM +5 versus OBA.


During my research the Russians did fortify the interior not just the outer walls. The rules allow for fortified locations, but the TEM mod vs OBA(roofless) is reduced to + 2 TEM modifier for the entire interior. This change would mean the oven + trench hexes would have the +5 TEM OBA mod which is true to the Russian battle reports concerning survivability and cover versus the German OBA.

The tunnel follows the rules for tunnels except it is 5 hexes long.


I am going to try this out to see it helps the campaign game.
 
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Eagle4ty

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Recently I have been researching the actual Hall 4. There are three things of great importance for the Russian s that are not included.
  1. The Martin (short form I am using) ovens were thick steel boxes that provided pillboxes, for the Russian defenders, these provided protection from the artillery and direct fire. Now these were also connected via tunnels through the debris and fighting positions.
  2. There was a ditch that ran down the middle of the main, hall, to provide water for the furnaces, it was deep enough to provide protection as well. Daily battle reports show the trench was used to also provide protection and a hiding place for Russian troops.
  3. There was a tunnel (not a sewer link, but an actual tunnel) that ran from the finger gully the farthest east point of Hall 4 Most of the later re-inforcements that came to the Red October factory used this tunnel. It was hidden from view in the gully, and unless you were adjacent to it in the Hall you would never see it.
This is the main reason Hall 4 seems to fall so quickly. There are 14 ovens in the hall, 11 that ran 2/3 of the way along the north wall and 3 that ran along the south east wall. They are not used, so once the factory is roofless, there was little in the way of protection, when actually these ovens were used extensively for cover, as was the trench. On the map there are 6 hexes with the smoke stacks. These can be turned into a pillbox+trench hex and the ditch becomes a regular trench. I know the rules state that fortifications cannot exist in factory debris. But from what I see a linear barrage along the entire length of the hall stands to clear out a lot of the defenders, which does not follow the actual battle reports. So after careful consideration I made up my own house rules for the hall:

Martin Oven trench hex.: Capacity = 2 sqds + sw's + ldr's,
TEM = (with roof) +3TEM , +6 versus OBA
(no roof)= +3TEM +5 versus OBA.
The high mod versus OBA is due to the debris and the thick steel walls and doors of the ovens.

Ditch =Capacity = 1 sqd + sw + ldr,
+3TEM +5 versus OBA.


During my research the Russians did fortify the interior not just the outer walls. The rules allow for fortified locations, but the TEM mod vs OBA(roofless) is reduced to + 2 TEM modifier for the entire interior. This change would mean the oven + trench hexes would have the +5 TEM OBA mod which is true to the Russian battle reports concerning survivability and cover versus the German OBA.

The tunnel follows the rules for tunnels except it is 5 hexes long.


I am going to try this out to see it helps the campaign game.
There was also a semi-protected concrete elevated walkway that extended the entire length of the Martinhofen that was next to impossible to effectively destroy (height unknown but for ease & game purposes at rooftop). You may want to try something like allowing at least a Sqd Eqiv to be placed at rooftop level even if the building is gutted.

Also, unlike many other "standard" factories, the building did not contain many entry/egress points (windows, man-doors, previous exterior dmg, etc.) so perhaps not allowing entry except at designated entry hexes or breaches could be entertained as well (note: this could also be applied to several of the RB factories as well).

Just thoughts here to enhance the "historical" flavor of the experience.
 

stuh42asl

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There was also a semi-protected concrete elevated walkway that extended the entire length of the Martinhofen that was next to impossible to effectively destroy (height unknown but for ease & game purposes at rooftop). You may want to try something like allowing at least a Sqd Eqiv to be placed at rooftop level even if the building is gutted.

Also, unlike many other "standard" factories, the building did not contain many entry/egress points (windows, man-doors, previous exterior dmg, etc.) so perhaps not allowing entry except at designated entry hexes or breaches could be entertained as well (note: this could also be applied to several of the RB factories as well).

Just thoughts here to enhance the "historical" flavor of the experience.
There is also a metal crane and track between the hall 4 and the Admin building. it was design to offload trains and trucks. It is the same height of the hall at 1.5 levels,was of steel construction and had access points(ladders) along it's entire length. So the ground framework would give a +1 hindrance and a +1 tem to squads on top it was narrow so a capacity of a squad equivalent.

I can put that walkway in it is a level one obstacle, re-enforced concrete, put yes it would provide an access point to the roof, and since it was covered, a +2 tem and a capacity of 1 squad +sw+ ldr

Both the catwalk and metal track were used by russian snipers as well. As I said before the +2 debris, means the russian defender will be easily wiped out by several OBA FFE, which is definately not the way the hall should be. During the defence of Hall 4 at the time of CG2 there were 400 men defending against almost 1000 engineers, storm troops and regular infantry.
 

AdrianE

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One thing that is clearly missing is the fact that the Soviets placed artillery observers at the top of the smoke stacks.
Each smokestack should have a pseudo steeple location at level 4 with at 1 SMC stacking limit.
 

stuh42asl

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One thing that is clearly missing is the fact that the Soviets placed artillery observers at the top of the smoke stacks.
Each smokestack should have a pseudo steeple location at level 4 with at 1 SMC stacking limit.
Thanks Adrian, that ha been one of my concerns as well, having played this twice, the Russian has few places for a observer to see the entire complex.
 

=FC=Gorgon

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Hey folks. Just wanted let y'all know that we restarted but it was still all over by day 2.

I made a big fight in Hall 4 and that fight was lots of fun. But he still captured it by the end of the day (I had 1 hex left). Meanwhile he was able to close up on the flanks but I had set things up so that the slag heap would be the final alamo. Here is the problem.

Once the Germans have most or all of the height advantage there is no where for the Russians to hide. It's just a matter of time after that. At minimum, it's not very fun for the Russian player. So after 6 months of this on and off, I called it. I would be happy to share more details if people wish but IMHO it's not worth playing CG II. Not without a lot of fixes.

Some background. I am not am expert player but I am competent and Jim, my regular opponent, and I are about 50/50 these days. Skillwise we are about the same. We both have played a lot of Stalingrad; including the 'big one' in VotG so it's not like we don't know how to fight there. This CG just needs some help or it would be nice if someone designed another 3-5 day CG for this map.

I hope to get around to playing Men of Steel at some point but will take a break for a while to prep for the virtual Nor'easter XXV tournament (shameless plug).

Thanks to everyone for their advice on this thread.

MikeS
 

Eagle4ty

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Hey folks. Just wanted let y'all know that we restarted but it was still all over by day 2.

I made a big fight in Hall 4 and that fight was lots of fun. But he still captured it by the end of the day (I had 1 hex left). Meanwhile he was able to close up on the flanks but I had set things up so that the slag heap would be the final alamo. Here is the problem.

Once the Germans have most or all of the height advantage there is no where for the Russians to hide. It's just a matter of time after that. At minimum, it's not very fun for the Russian player. So after 6 months of this on and off, I called it. I would be happy to share more details if people wish but IMHO it's not worth playing CG II. Not without a lot of fixes.

Some background. I am not am expert player but I am competent and Jim, my regular opponent, and I are about 50/50 these days. Skillwise we are about the same. We both have played a lot of Stalingrad; including the 'big one' in VotG so it's not like we don't know how to fight there. This CG just needs some help or it would be nice if someone designed another 3-5 day CG for this map.

I hope to get around to playing Men of Steel at some point but will take a break for a while to prep for the virtual Nor'easter XXV tournament (shameless plug).

Thanks to everyone for their advice on this thread.

MikeS
Try RO6 THE PLAYING FIELD had a lot of fun with that one and consider it well balanced. RO5 is again another blow out IMHO.
 
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