Rules glitch - Ambush and Dummies

Major Issues

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2018
Messages
325
Reaction score
1,102
Location
Secane, PA
First name
Vince
Country
llUnited States
Wuz playing someone a couple weeks ago, and jumped a stack of concealment counters. He sez he gets to roll for Ambush - if he wins, he can withdraw. Didn't sound right, but I could not find anything in the rules to contradict it.

Because there isn't anything there. He wuz wrong, but the only references I could find to show it were a note in the index under Ambush, and in 4 point type on the ASOP chart. Which no one carries anymore, because they have the Pocket Edition Rulebook.

I hope the new rulebook will address this.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,595
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Dummy units are revealed at the start of the CCPh.
A11.19 : "Dummy units are automatically removed prior to attack designation in CC because they cannot reveal a Strength Factor."
Ambush happens at about the same time : A11.4 "Prior to declaring CC attacks, each player makes one dr. ", but the ASOP places the revelation of Dummies (8.11B) just before resolving Ambush (8.12B).
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Wuz playing someone a couple weeks ago, and jumped a stack of concealment counters. He sez he gets to roll for Ambush - if he wins, he can withdraw. Didn't sound right, but I could not find anything in the rules to contradict it.

Because there isn't anything there. He wuz wrong, but the only references I could find to show it were a note in the index under Ambush, and in 4 point type on the ASOP chart. Which no one carries anymore, because they have the Pocket Edition Rulebook.

I hope the new rulebook will address this.
I am confident the new rulebook will address this as the old one does so already:

A11.41 AMBUSH WITHDRAWAL: Any Infantry (unless pinned/berserk/Disrupted) that is part of a force which has qualified for Ambush has the option to decline CC altogether, prior to CC resolution, by immediate withdrawal into an Accessible Location or may withdraw from CC automatically after resolving all CC attacks by and against it, but only before Melee occurs.

EX: A German 6-5-8 squad advances into a Location containing a concealed Russian 4-4-7 squad. The 4-4-7 does not lose concealment yet (12.14). Both players make a dr in order to establish if an Ambush has occurred. As neither side is CX, Lax, or Stealthy, the Russian player has a -2 drm (Concealed) while the German player has no drm. The German player makes an Ambush dr of 3; if the Russian player makes an original Ambush dr of ≤ 2, he Ambushes the German (11.4). The Russian player makes an Original dr of 3, however, and no Ambush occurs. The Russian player must now decide (even though the German is the ATTACKER; 11.12) if his concealed 4-4-7 squad is going to attack in CC. If the Russian decides to attack, the 4-4-7 immediately loses its concealment (12.14), allowing the German 6-5-8 to attack at 3-2 odds. If the Russian decides not to attack, the German's attack would be 3-4 (11.19). 3-4 rounds down to the nearest odds ratio (11.11) which is 1-2. If the German CC DR is a 2 or 3, the concealed Russian squad is eliminated; if the DR is a 4, the 4-4-7 loses its concealment and becomes a HS (11.11; 12.14). Any other DR has no effect on the concealed 4-4-7; i.e., it does not lose its concealment, is not locked in Melee (11.15), and is free to leave the hex during its next MPh/APh. If it were to use Assault Movement or advance into an ADJACENT non-Open Ground Location, it would even be able to retain its concealment.


As for the 'Concealment/Dummy' part of the question - Robin was quicker than me.

von Marwitz
 

Major Issues

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2018
Messages
325
Reaction score
1,102
Location
Secane, PA
First name
Vince
Country
llUnited States
Dummy units are revealed at the start of the CCPh.
A11.19 : "Dummy units are automatically removed prior to attack designation in CC because they cannot reveal a Strength Factor."
Ambush happens at about the same time : A11.4 "Prior to declaring CC attacks, each player makes one dr. ", but the ASOP places the revelation of Dummies (8.11B) just before resolving Ambush (8.12B).

You are making my point. ASOP has revelation of Dummies. The rule book does not. Being removed prior to CC attack does not address the possibility of them getting Ambush and withdrawing before any attack. Which, as I stated, is NOT in the Ambush rules.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,595
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
A11.19 DOES speak of Dummies removal (read it if you don't believe my quotation).
And the ASOP, as for many rules applications, clarifies the exact chronology (e.g. it precises that Berserk units move first).
I would not like to see all the timing details included in the rulebook, which already is quite thick.
 

Paul S NJ

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
Messages
603
Reaction score
524
Location
New Jersey
Country
llUnited States
I believe Vince's point is the ASOP shouldn't be the source of the rules needed to play the game.

This falls into the realm of a desirable revision. Someone (and I'm not volunteering, thank you very much) needs to rewrite the tome, incorporating all the q&a and appropriate fixes (like shellholes, gully crest advance, banning the IIFT, making the Sherman a normal sized target,and all my other pet peeves).
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,778
Reaction score
7,201
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
I believe Vince's point is the ASOP shouldn't be the source of the rules needed to play the game.
But one does need the ASOP in order to play correctly in some cases. E.g., I don't think either the fire rules or the entrenchment rules specifiy that all entrenchments during the PFPh has to be made before normal fire attacks. I say think - because I haven't actually checked.

Same thing with the order of actions in the RPh - think that's only specified in detail in the ASOP.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,595
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I would not see the swamping of the rules with the chronological precisions of the ASOP as a "desirable revision" (sorry Paul).
No more than including the results of the different tables of the QRDC: tables and a detailed sequence of play are a common feature in (war)games, as a way to complement the rules.
Taking the pain to read the ASOP is part of the good discipline that playing ASL requires.
 
Last edited:

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
I would not see the swamping of the rules with the chronological précisions of the ASOP as a "desirable revision" (sorry Paul).
No more than including the results of the different tables of the QRDC: tables and a detailed sequence of play are a common feature in (war)games, as a way to complement the rules.
Taking the pain to read the ASOP is part of the good discipline that playing ASL requires.
Well put. As I believe you said earlier the rule book is thick enough as it is. Charts just make sense.
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
1,480
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
I have always used the ASOP as an adjunct to the rules - a player aid to help put the various rules within a 'phase' into sequence.

This helps avoid 'gaming' the activities within a phase to manipulate potential outcomes.

For example: the above mention of entrenching during the PFPh (ASOP 2.2). This compels a player to make decisions about digging in before he sees the result of his fire attacks. Otherwise he could say, "I broke his death star with a 1 FP +1 !?!?!,.... ON TO BERLIN!!"

Most of the time it probably does not matter if the digging in is out of sequence but the ASOP does have Entrenching taking place before other units 'fire'.

The ASOP is more detailed in some areas than others and with good reason,... just read 3.32A :eek: :p This is especially important when A(ttacker) and D(efender) events follow hard on the heels of each other.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Strict adherence to the ASOP just simply helps resolve many questions in regards to rules applications. Especially important is the sequence of events actions in the RPh (e.g. can't rally a unit and and then attempt to pick up a SW for example) and functions in the PFPh (e.g. direct fire SMOKE before OBA) and especially in the RtPh (e.g. unit(s) that will voluntarily break must do so prior to routing any units avoiding that "Oh wait, now I need that leader here in the upcoming RPh even if he's broken" after you've seen the results of your other routs). You're not being a dickhead insisting on the ASOP sequence, it's just a part of the rules as much as any other part of the game. Learning the game, following the ASOP is mandatory; experienced players will find the ASOP charts quite helpful to have handy to resolve many disputes.
 
Top