A25.33 American OBA Draw Pile for Scarce Ammunition

BattleSchool

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American OBA chits (per National Capabilities Chart) 10B*/3R
* Plentiful ammo included (A25.33): deduct one Black for Normal ammo
1. Am I correct in concluding that the Draw Pile for a US battery with Scarce Ammo is 9B and 4R?

2. Am I also correct in thinking that the number of chits in any Draw Pile will never exceed 10B/4R?
C1.211 DRAW PILE: Each Draw Pile can be increased at this time by one or more of the following, as applicable: one extra black chit if the battery has been assigned ≥ one Pre-Registered hex (1.73); one extra black chit if it is specified as having Plentiful Ammunition; one extra red chit if it has Scarce Ammunition.
 

jrv

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An American OBA module with Plentiful Ammo, Scarce Ammo and a Pre-Registered hex will have 11B/4R. Although common sense perhaps might indicate that Plentiful and Scarce can't be assigned at the same time, there's nothing in the rules to prevent it.

JR
 

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Sticking with "increased... as applicable," there are no situations in any ASLRB chapter (HASL or otherwise) that would require > 14 chits in any one Draw Pile (e.g. 11B/3R, or 10B/4R), correct?


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It just occurred to me that unlike the Pleva OBA rule, the number of red (and black) chits in a NOBA Draw Pile remains constant. I wonder if it would make more sense if Battery Access for OBA (C1.21) worked more like NOBA (G14.63) does.

The black-to-red ratios for each nationality might require some adjustment in light of the possibility of "perpetual" OBA. Or black chits could deplete normally, while red chits are returned to the Draw Pile.

Either way, OBA would remain a possibility for the duration of a scenario. Granted OBA could be permanently lost if a radio/field phone malfunctions/is eliminated, or its operator is eliminated, captured, etc. But the net result would be no different than the loss of a Shore Fire-Control Party (G14.611). What's more, the odds of rolling boxcars is, in most cases, less than the odds of drawing two red chits before a Fire Mission can be placed.

G14.63 BATTERY ACCESS: Each NOBA battery, regardless of nationality, uses a Draw Pile of five black and two red chits. Whenever a chit in the Draw Pile of a NOBA battery would otherwise be permanently removed (C1.211), it is instead mixed back into the Pile; thus no chit is permanently removed from a NOBA Draw Pile. Drawing ≥ two red chits does not cause the permanent loss of NOBA Battery Access.
 

Perry

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An American OBA module with Plentiful Ammo, Scarce Ammo and a Pre-Registered hex will have 11B/4R. Although common sense perhaps might indicate that Plentiful and Scarce can't be assigned at the same time, there's nothing in the rules to prevent it.

JR
With the right SSR, many things are possible, but with a standard SSR providing the Americans with Scarce Ammunition, I think they would get a 9B/4R pile. They only get Plentiful Ammunition "unless specified otherwise". I think Scarce Ammunition qualifies as "otherwise."
 

jrv

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With the right SSR, many things are possible, but with a standard SSR providing the Americans with Scarce Ammunition, I think they would get a 9B/4R pile. They only get Plentiful Ammunition "unless specified otherwise". I think Scarce Ammunition qualifies as "otherwise."
I sorta had expected the SSR said it had both (not that it makes any sense). I was not saying that with only scarce specified the draw would be 11/4. Only if the SSR said the module had both plentiful and scarce (and a pre-reg).

JR
 
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Robin Reeve

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Something that I regret is that SSRs don't simply put in brackets a reminder of the black and red chits - e.g. "(8B/3R)".
I know that some players are very opposed to any information on a scenario card that the players cannot go and find by themselves - after some spelunking in the rules, even.
The fact is that I nearly systematically write the (#/#) information next to the OBA SSR on my scenario card.
I never designed a scenario pack, but if I were to, I would give that simple information.
 

Steven Pleva

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An American OBA module with Plentiful Ammo, Scarce Ammo and a Pre-Registered hex will have 11B/4R. Although common sense perhaps might indicate that Plentiful and Scarce can't be assigned at the same time, there's nothing in the rules to prevent it.

JR
H1.52 implies Plentiful or Scarce, not Plentiful and Scarce. Of course, a SSR can specify anything...
Steve
 

BattleSchool

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Something that I regret is that SSRs don't simply put in brackets a reminder of the black and red chits - e.g. "(8B/3R)".
Good idea.

The addition of eight characters (at most) to an SSR is a modest compromise. It would reduce prep time, and help avoid errors.
 

Brian W

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Something that I regret is that SSRs don't simply put in brackets a reminder of the black and red chits - e.g. "(8B/3R)".
Yes, they could have done away with the whole nationality standard chits and just let the designer give the chits based on the historical information available to the designer with a suggestion from chapter H, like ELR is done.
 

Philippe D.

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It's not just about doing away with the nationality standards, it's about making players' life easier at little cost.

The rules were written at a time when the available scenarios were very few (BV came with eight scenarios, and for years each core module did the same), so I guess the assumption at the time was that most games (or at least, most games after a time) would be DYO. I may be wrong, but I'd say they are by far the exception now (I have never played a DYO game myself).

So, the Americans were given a "default" of Plentiful Ammo, and so their standard OBA pile was described with this default. But by now, this somehow makes things a little bit confusing. Of course, with the vast number of existing scenarios by now, changing this default would open a huge can of balancing worms - most scenario cards don't specify the Plentiful Ammo for the US, since it's on by default.
 

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Good idea.

The addition of eight characters (at most) to an SSR is a modest compromise. It would reduce prep time, and help avoid errors.
It would alleviate the
"Plentiful ammunition" 17 char. if I counted correctly, or
"Scarce ammo" 10 for the shortest version...LOL
 

Stewart

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Of course, with the vast number of existing scenarios by now, changing this default would open a huge can of balancing worms - most scenario cards don't specify the Plentiful Ammo for the US, since it's on by default.
Good Point.
It just goes to show to CHECK all sources before Jumping into an "easy" typical scenario.
LOL
 

lightspeed

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H1.52 implies Plentiful or Scarce, not Plentiful and Scarce. Of course, a SSR can specify anything...
Steve
Hey Steve,

I agree that while Plentiful and scarce ammo was not the intent in Chapter C, I think H1.52
implies an xor only in the case of purchased OBA: "OBA can be purchased with Plentiful or
Scarce Ammunition (C1.211) by..."

It would be surprising if the intent was that Chapter H have a rule that was not in line with
Chapters A through D.

Note that C1.211 says "...one extra black chit if it is specified as having Plentiful Ammunition;
one extra red chit if it has Scarce Ammunition."

It makes sense that they are mutually exclusive, but I think one could argue exclusivity is not
specified in the rules.

indy
 

Stewart

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You can have whatever SSR sets your draw pile to be but you can't have plentiful and scarce ammo.
It takes ,01 seconds to realize that.
It's like saying I'm broken and in good order.

C'mon people we are wasting electrons here.
 

Steven Pleva

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Hey Steve,

I agree that while Plentiful and scarce ammo was not the intent in Chapter C, I think H1.52
implies an xor only in the case of purchased OBA: "OBA can be purchased with Plentiful or
Scarce Ammunition (C1.211) by..."

It would be surprising if the intent was that Chapter H have a rule that was not in line with
Chapters A through D.

Note that C1.211 says "...one extra black chit if it is specified as having Plentiful Ammunition;
one extra red chit if it has Scarce Ammunition."

It makes sense that they are mutually exclusive, but I think one could argue exclusivity is not
specified in the rules.

indy
Indy,
I agree with you. That is why I used the word "implied" in my post.

As a TD, when I have to rule on a question during a tournament, I don't have the luxury of having a lengthy philosophical discussion. I have to take the information I have and rule in real time. I try for the most reasonable answer. That is the spirit of my post...
Steve
 

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It's not just about doing away with the nationality standards, it's about making players' life easier at little cost.

The rules were written at a time when the available scenarios were very few (BV came with eight scenarios, and for years each core module did the same), so I guess the assumption at the time was that most games (or at least, most games after a time) would be DYO. I may be wrong, but I'd say they are by far the exception now (I have never played a DYO game myself).
I believe you are wrong about assuming that bitd most players would turn to DYO when they had played all the published scenarios. People just replayed the available scenarios. We played more DYO than others I spoke to back then but I would say less than 2% of our total playing was DYO. We didn't approach them as serious scenarios. More like kids given free reign in a candy store, strictly for amusement.

The DYO system had too many weaknesses, IMHO, to generate scenarios you would want to play on a regular basis. This is just based on our experience with DYO, others probably had a different, and more mature viewpoint.

Indulge yourself and play some DYO. Buy all that weird stuff you never get to use!
 
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T34

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With the right SSR, many things are possible, but with a standard SSR providing the Americans with Scarce Ammunition, I think they would get a 9B/4R pile. They only get Plentiful Ammunition "unless specified otherwise". I think Scarce Ammunition qualifies as "otherwise."
Why oh why did they have to do this in the first place?
 

Eagle4ty

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Even playing things like adding sz, Gyro's, HIP SW (e.g. Radios) to scenarios as an option has fallen out of favor unless specified in an SSR. Even when adding purchases for fortifications a new chart is usually provided for the scenario rather than using the DYO purchase chart but limiting purchases to only items pertinent to a scenario. Much of the first part of Chapter H has simply been pushed to the back shelf and forgotten or modified by SSRs to scenarios anyway.
 
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lightspeed

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Indy,
I agree with you. That is why I used the word "implied" in my post.

As a TD, when I have to rule on a question during a tournament, I don't have the luxury of having a lengthy philosophical discussion. I have to take the information I have and rule in real time. I try for the most reasonable answer. That is the spirit of my post...
Steve
Steve,

Apologies, I inferred something in your use of "implied" that was not implied.

I looked at the National Capabilities Chart and it doesn't really help make things crystal clear.
As Chris says in the OP, it says the US draw pile is 10B/3R and that includes an extra black for
Plentiful Ammo. It then says remove one black for Normal Ammo. It goes on to say to deduct
one black for Normal Ammo.

One could argue (and I wouldn't be the one) that it says nothing for Scarce Ammo and therefore
the Scarce Ammo pile is 10B/4R.

I hope Perry's answer upthread is considered official - \epsilon.

I guess the designers assumed that common sense would prevail throughout ASL.
Oh to be young and innocent again!

Agreed on the TD thing...I've been in the situation where I've been asked questions. Even if we
take a couple of minutes to think, for the players minutes seem like hours. I'm sure I've made a
mistake. C'est la guerre.

Roll low!

indy
 

Actionjick

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Indy,
I agree with you. That is why I used the word "implied" in my post.

As a TD, when I have to rule on a question during a tournament, I don't have the luxury of having a lengthy philosophical discussion. I have to take the information I have and rule in real time. I try for the most reasonable answer. That is the spirit of my post...
Steve
Steve perhaps you would agree that while being a TD may not make you a better player it does expose where you need to bone up on the rules. Having Mac around certainly helped us at Oktoberfest when it came to questions about the rules.

Captain Bacchus and I would love it if you had the luxury of lengthy philosophical discussions. We can picture you in flowing purple robes, SL box purple of course, sitting cross legged on a raised platform, fuming incense stenchers on either side of you, in front of a throng of acolytes, pontificating on VBM sleaze and other such esoteric matters.???
 
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