Sleaze freeze, riders, TCA, first fire, and CC!

[labelcd6]

Had a situation beyond our comprehension, so interested in some rules analysis from you all:

1. Opponent wants to sleaze my position.



His AFV is there for 12/15 MPs. AFV has a rider.

2. AFV bypasses O4/O5 (14/15 MPs):



He is still in motion, but he wants to stop and get the HS into my hex.

3. He can't unload due to lack of MPs, so he stops (15/15 MPs) and turns TCA to force rider bailout:



Unsure of how street fighting would work here. He stops and turns TCA simultaneously. If I street fight at that point, I assume +2 for motion AFV I doesn't apply. Would +1 for rider apply?

Our read of the rules is that the rider takes a MC and is also subject to first fire in the terrain type of the CAFP of the AFV.

4. Therefore, R2 (and potentially other units, including O4, which would be TPBF) can take first fire shots at down 2):



The former rider ends up pinned. I don't remember if it was from the bail out MC or from fire from R2.

O4 does not fire because he wants to street fight the AFV.

Our read of the rules is that, once first fire is over, the former rider will end up in CC in the O4 building, thereby preventing a street fight against the AFV.

5. Before first fire is over against the now pinned former rider, I attempt to street fight the AFV. Now that I think about this, this should not have been allowed?



I fail my PAATC and pin. First fire ends against the pinned former rider, so it causes hex to be marked with CC.

Final position:



We would appreciate any help understanding what happened or should have happened here!

 

[Sparafucil3]

2. AFV bypasses O4/O5 (14/15 MPs):
He is still in motion, but he wants to stop and get the HS into my hex.

He could just turn the TCA without stopping and force the unload into your hex. The TCA could be claimed on the MP's spent to enter. The unit would have to take a bail out, and then be in OG during all D1F. Assuming it survives, it gets placed in the obstacle after that. AFV is free to continue moving.

3. He can't unload due to lack of MPs, so he stops (15/15 MPs) and turns TCA to force rider bailout:

Unsure of how street fighting would work here. He stops and turns TCA simultaneously. If I street fight at that point, I assume +2 for motion AFV I doesn't apply. Would +1 for rider apply?

Our read of the rules is that the rider takes a MC and is also subject to first fire in the terrain type of the CAFP of the AFV.

He declares the Stop and TCA. Rider bails out and takes the MC. You can take all your D1F as if the moving units spent 1 MP. The unit in R2 could SFF. The unit in 04 has to do some deciding. Since the AFV stopped in your Location, you will lose Concealment. They could attack the Infantry after the bail out (TPBF). They could attack the AFV but it would receive covering Infantry DRM if the HS is not broken/pinned. They can't do both. In your case, the CCV of 5, -1 Street Fighting DRM would immobilize on a 5, kill on a 4, create a Burning Wreck on a 3. After all your D1F was resolved, the Riders would be placed in the obstacle with your unit and marked according to its actions. This assumes the Rider was pinned on the bail out. If the Rider was not pinned at the moment of the Street Fighting, then a +1 DRM would apply (covering Infantry HS) which effectively negates the -1 SF DRM.

4. Therefore, R2 (and potentially other units, including O4, which would be TPBF) can take first fire shots at down 2):

I am not sure the DRM. FFNAM applies for sure. I don't think FFMO does. I also believe the +1 for the AFV applies as the Unit moved as a stack with the AFV. I think the DRM is zero. If the AFV does not apply, then the -2 DRM for FFNAM/FFMO would be correct.

The former rider ends up pinned. I don't remember if it was from the bail out MC or from fire from R2.

O4 does not fire because he wants to street fight the AFV.

Our read of the rules is that, once first fire is over, the former rider will end up in CC in the O4 building, thereby preventing a street fight against the AFV.

Correct. However, the unit in O4 can opt to attack before the CC. As I said above, you can attack the now pinned Infantry (DRM could be +1 if the AFV applies or zero since it is now pinned, see my note above about the AFV as cover). You could take a PAATC and Street Fire as D1F. It could occur as part of the Stop MP. See my note above about the DRM's.

5. Before first fire is over against the now pinned former rider, I attempt to street fight the AFV. Now that I think about this, this should not have been allowed?

You were good.

From my optic, the only questionable thing is the -2 DRM (and I am honestly rusty so I defer to others on this) and the fact the AFV doesn't need to stop to "sweep the leg" and force the bailout. I would await comment from others to make sure I am completely correct on the DRM. I am pretty confident on the rest. -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Since the AFV stopped in your Location, you will lose Concealment.

That is only if the AFV ends its MPh in the Location, IIRC - it could declare ESB and Start up again and leave. NRBH, so I can't check.

 

[Sparafucil3]

That is only if the AFV ends its MPh in the Location, IIRC - it could declare ESB and Start up again and leave. NRBH, so I can't check.

Correct. I forgot about the ESB to start and move on. What about the DRM's against the bailed out Rider? -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Correct. I forgot about the ESB to start and move on. What about the DRM's against the bailed out Rider? -- jim

I think it gets the TEM from the Vehicle (at the CAFP) vs attacks from outside the hex.

 

[Tuomo]

NRBH, so I can't check.

I thought we dedicated one of the Summer Interns to make sure this never happened?

 

[dwardzala]

I thought we dedicated one of the Summer Interns to make sure this never happened?

They got distracted chatting up the barista when they went to get coffee and forgot to take care of it.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

He could just turn the TCA without stopping and force the unload into your hex. The TCA could be claimed on the MP's spent to enter. The unit would have to take a bail out, and then be in OG during all D1F. Assuming it survives, it gets placed in the obstacle after that. AFV is free to continue moving.



He declares the Stop and TCA. Rider bails out and takes the MC. You can take all your D1F as if the moving units spent 1 MP. The unit in R2 could SFF. The unit in 04 has to do some deciding. Since the AFV stopped in your Location, you will lose Concealment. They could attack the Infantry after the bail out (TPBF). They could attack the AFV but it would receive covering Infantry DRM if the HS is not broken/pinned. They can't do both. In your case, the CCV of 5, -1 Street Fighting DRM would immobilize on a 5, kill on a 4, create a Burning Wreck on a 3. After all your D1F was resolved, the Riders would be placed in the obstacle with your unit and marked according to its actions. This assumes the Rider was pinned on the bail out. If the Rider was not pinned at the moment of the Street Fighting, then a +1 DRM would apply (covering Infantry HS) which effectively negates the -1 SF DRM.


I am not sure the DRM. FFNAM applies for sure. I don't think FFMO does. I also believe the +1 for the AFV applies as the Unit moved as a stack with the AFV. I think the DRM is zero. If the AFV does not apply, then the -2 DRM for FFNAM/FFMO would be correct.


Correct. However, the unit in O4 can opt to attack before the CC. As I said above, you can attack the now pinned Infantry (DRM could be +1 if the AFV applies or zero since it is now pinned, see my note above about the AFV as cover). You could take a PAATC and Street Fire as D1F. It could occur as part of the Stop MP. See my note above about the DRM's.


You were good.

From my optic, the only questionable thing is the -2 DRM (and I am honestly rusty so I defer to others on this) and the fact the AFV doesn't need to stop to "sweep the leg" and force the bailout. I would await comment from others to make sure I am completely correct on the DRM. I am pretty confident on the rest. -- jim

Can you street fight if there is no building across the street?

 

[Sparafucil3]

Can you street fight if there is no building across the street?

If the AFV is in bypass, you can claim SF DRM. It isn't technically "Street Fighting" but people call it that. Refer to the last sentence of A11.8. -- jim

 

[Ric of The LBC]

If the AFV is in bypass, you can claim SF DRM. It isn't technically "Street Fighting" but people call it that. Refer to the last sentence of A11.8. -- jim

Ahhh. Tanks.

(get it?)

 

[labelcd6]

Does A7.212 prevent the AFV from being a target of street fighting?

 

[Sparafucil3]

Does A7.212 prevent the AFV from being a target of street fighting?

Why would it? All the units in the example are at range 0. -- jim

 

[labelcd6]

Why would it? All the units in the example are at range 0. -- jim

If riders are eligible to take TPBF, then A7.212 says firing unit cannot fire at other units.

 

[Sparafucil3]

If riders are eligible to take TPBF, then A7.212 says firing unit cannot fire at other units.

The AFV is also subject to TPBF, it is just immune to small arms fire. -- jim

 

[labelcd6]

The AFV is also subject to TPBF, it is just immune to small arms fire. -- jim

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying!