How to become better at using AFVs in ASL?

[stuh42asl]

Also I remember it also gets a bonus for range of 1-3 hexes as well. I think on the AP tp kill it has a modifier of +2 to it's to kill as well = 8 , but NRBH right now. Also Tigers did not have Schurzen, and if I remember correctly the rear armor on a Tiger is less than 8, will check though on this one.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The Basic TK# is what's on the To Kill Table.

C7.11:
"The Basic TK# of an ordnance hit vs a vehicle [EXC: via the Area Target Type] is found by consulting the TK Table used for that ammunition type to find the TK# listed under that Gun Caliber and Length."

I.e., the Russian ATR's Basic TK# is "6".

Case D - Range Effect is then added to form the Modified TK#, C7.11:
"This Basic TK# is then increased/decreased by all applicable TK modifications (Cases A-D) to reach a Modified TK#."

Pz V lowest AF is 6, which the Russian ATR's Basic TK# is not higher than.

 

[Fort]

I remember reading a description of the battles around Kharkov where a Tiger tank platoon rumbled about the Soviet positions and came back looking like a porcupine from all the ATR rounds stuck in its armor. It seems the rounds struck the armor and, at certain angles, just stuck there.
It's where I got the information for my AP scenario - Nishne, Nyet!

 

[Martin Mayers]

The Basic TK# is what's on the To Kill Table.

C7.11:
"The Basic TK# of an ordnance hit vs a vehicle [EXC: via the Area Target Type] is found by consulting the TK Table used for that ammunition type to find the TK# listed under that Gun Caliber and Length."

I.e., the Russian ATR's Basic TK# is "6".

Case D - Range Effect is the added to form the Modified TK#, C7.11:
"This Basic TK# is then increased/decreased by all applicable TK modifications (Cases A-D) to reach a Modified TK#."

Pz V lowest AF is 6, which the Russian ATR's Basic TK# is not higher than.

Oh bloody hell !!!

 

[Sparafucil3]

The Basic TK# is what's on the To Kill Table.

C7.11:
"The Basic TK# of an ordnance hit vs a vehicle [EXC: via the Area Target Type] is found by consulting the TK Table used for that ammunition type to find the TK# listed under that Gun Caliber and Length."

I.e., the Russian ATR's Basic TK# is "6".

Case D - Range Effect is the added to form the Modified TK#, C7.11:
"This Basic TK# is then increased/decreased by all applicable TK modifications (Cases A-D) to reach a Modified TK#."

Pz V lowest AF is 6, which the Russian ATR's Basic TK# is not higher than.

I was going to type all of this but you saved me from doing it. -- jim

 

[JoeArthur]

Good afternoon, Stuh,

Just to be clear on the rule, C5.7 states the Basic TK#... is > the targets lowest hull AF,....

The Russian ATR has a Basic TK# of 6 while Pz V has its lowest AF of 6 and Pz VI has an AF of 8. Neither may be DI'd by the Russian ATR in the game. The Pz I through IV hulls with weakest AF of 3 are certainly vulnerable to the ATR,... even to point of being killed by them.

Just in case you had not seen this picture:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/86tbeq

 

[JoeArthur]

Nobody has yet mentioned the sleaze tactic of driving one of your tanks into your opponents tank hex to freeze him.

I was talking to Rich Domovic and he had witnessed a twist on that in the Grofaz round of a tourny. The tank that you drive in has a half squad as riders. Twist the turret whilst you are in there and they have to bail out. If your opponent does not kill them (DM does not matter) you drive out again and go for the shot or just keep driving on safe in the knowledge that the enemy tank behind you cannot go for a rear shot.

Sleazy but legal

 

[Sparafucil3]

Nobody has yet mentioned the sleaze tactic of driving one of your tanks into your opponents tank hex to freeze him.

You should probably go back and re-read then because this was discussed at length

I was talking to Rich Domovic and he had witnessed a twist on that in the Grofaz round of a tourny. The tank that you drive in has a half squad as riders. Twist the turret whilst you are in there and they have to bail out. If your opponent does not kill them (DM does not matter) you drive out again and go for the shot or just keep driving on safe in the knowledge that the enemy tank behind you cannot go for a rear shot.

Sleazy but legal

I call this the Fortenberry special. I am sure others have done it, maybe even some earlier than Gary, but it was he who taught it to me (and not in a friendly way either ) -- jim

 

[The Purist]

Yup,... that's a gooder. That said, once it has been used against you, the counter is not too difficult.

The VBF is usually attempted when the attacker knows the threat of an AT (other than CC Reaction Fire) is considerably reduced. If the defender sees an AFV coming at them with Riders it is not uncommon to wait until they are 1 hex range and shoot them off with PBF. If they bail they may take additional casualties. The tank can still freeze the hex but there may be some solace for the defender in the casualties.

Mutually supporting infantry positions is the key to countering this. Easier said than done in many cases but still.

One should also recognise that if the attacker can afford to risk Infantry in this manner (risking PBF at PBR or deliberate bailing out) the defender may have other problems other than VBF. ?

 

[Actionjick]

Yup,... that's a gooder. That said, once it has been used against you, the counter is not too difficult.

The VBF is usually attempted when the attacker knows the threat of an AT (other than CC Reaction Fire) is considerably reduced. If the defender sees an AFV coming at them with Riders it is not uncommon to wait until they are 1 hex range and shoot them off with PBF. If they bail they may take additional casualties. The tank can still freeze the hex but there may be some solace for defender in the casualties.

Mutually supporting infantry positions is the key to countering this. Easier said than done in many cases but still.

One should also recognise that if the attacker can afford to risk Infantry in this manner (risking PBF at PBR or deliberate bailing out) the defender may have other problems other than VBF. ?

If you're playing Fort you probably have plenty of problems.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I call this the Fortenberry special. I am sure others have done it, maybe even some earlier than Gary, but it was he who taught it to me (and not in a friendly way either ) -- jim

I've seen it done with a 2-4-8 HS with a PIAT that survived long enough to take out a Panther this way.

Personally I would not call this (nor staying in the hex with a vehicle) sleazy (ymmv) - it's within the rules and just something else the defender has to be aware of can happen.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

One should also recognise that if the attacker can afford to risk Infantry in this manner (risking PBF at PBR or deliberate bailing out) the defender may have other problems other than VBF. ?

Or maybe he can't afford it and is wasting his resources to take out that AFV and those resources could/should be used elsewhere....

 

[The Purist]

That too. I doubt there are any hard and fast rules that can be applied to every situation.

"If situation B occurs, apply counter measure 2A to rectify"

What worked on turn 2 might fail utterly on turn 4,... or at the most critical moment for the win. We've all been there.

 

[Eagle4ty]

That too. I doubt there are any hard and fast rules that can be applied to every situation.

"If situation B occurs, apply counter measure 2A to rectify"

What worked on turn 2 might fail utterly on turn 4,... or at the most critical moment for the win. We've all been there.

I just assume that Murphy's Laws Of Combat will rear its ugly head (adjusted for ASL of course).

 

[Martin Mayers]

Nobody has yet mentioned the sleaze tactic of driving one of your tanks into your opponents tank hex to freeze him.

I was talking to Rich Domovic and he had witnessed a twist on that in the Grofaz round of a tourny. The tank that you drive in has a half squad as riders. Twist the turret whilst you are in there and they have to bail out. If your opponent does not kill them (DM does not matter) you drive out again and go for the shot or just keep driving on safe in the knowledge that the enemy tank behind you cannot go for a rear shot.

Sleazy but legal

 

[The Cisco Kid]

I believe we agree that PB range is the best opportunity to score a hit/kill in the MPh. Just as I am sure most experience players will try to support their vehicles so the opposition can't run up an put a paint shell into the back of your Mk VI

Although it does make "pretty pictures" and "scares the hell outta people". Two highly sought after objectives in an tank battle.

So why is the Tiger buttoned up but the Sherman isn't? heheh

 

[The Purist]

Ain't it obvious?? ?

You have a 'Heroic' 10-3 as a Passenger on a an M4a1 (76) manning the AAMG, the Sherman manned by an 'E-lite' crew (special ammo depletion) and a 10-2 AL in a town that has been overrun by three Fanatic Sapper/Combat Engineer/Commando 347s, lead by their 10-2 Sgt.

Wouldn't you button up?

Jeezzz!! ?

 

[jimfer]

Same for the Shermans.....the gyro was rarely used, and most gunners preferred the regular aim and shoot method. So in ASL a gyro really should be an optional piece of equipment, but to me I would take the T-34/M43 or T-34/85 anytime. Reasons are ease of maintenance, low ground pressure, smaller profile. I like the fact that the T-34 being so common, you can pull parts off a wreck and repair yours. Also it uses diesel, a fuel designed for winter operations, and less prone to explode like gasoline. If I had to crew a flame tank, I would use the OT-34(44 version) with 76mm or 85mm and coaxial mg, plus the flame thrower. By 44 Russian armor tactics were a lot better, with a more flexible command structure. And by late 44 with their deep operation doctrine, outperformed the German tactics. I would say by 44 they could easily out perform any force in the European front. The Shermans are good tanks, but have an achillies heal: Gasoline. Extreme cold typical on the eastern front, plays havoc with fuel.Second is the Shermans height, in Italy they had a lot of problems due to rollovers. I live near a tank museum, and you can see the obvious issues regarding vehicle profiles. The Russian liked the Shermans for their rubber padded tracks, which extended the life of the track itself, and the ice grousers that could replace some of the track pads, but not for it's performance in soft ground, or hilly terrain. The short 75mm was okay, but versus a panther or tiger good luck. I can see the lower kill ratio of the German tanks versus the Shermans in western Europe. The majority of the terrain was was either close, or built up. with few large areas of open ground. Now try the Shermans on Steppe Terrain, their chances drop considerably. In North Africa they were mauled by the Germans.

Please remember by late '44 German commanders lost a lot of the operational freedom they had before. The T-34 didn't want to face Panthers either and were often rip to pieces when they had to close any extended distance. Command and control often decide battles, the German Army lost that by'44. Hitler new best.....

 

[Ric of The LBC]

Ain't it obvious?? ?

You have a 'Heroic' 10-3 as a Passenger on a an M4a1 (76) manning the AAMG, the Sherman manned by an 'E-lite' crew (special ammo depletion) and a 10-2 AL in a town that has been overrun by three Fanatic Sapper/Combat Engineer/Commando 347s, lead by their 10-2 Sgt.

Wouldn't you button up?

Jeezzz!! ?

but 2 of those guys smelled like horse dung

 

[The Purist]

Not horse dung, that was an outhouse Crapgame and Willard sheltered behind. Crapgame throws a Toilet seat to the side after they recover.

That was people poop Cowboy was smellin' on the heroes.