CC Withrdawal possible after both sides attacked and Defender rolled 6,6?

[von Marwitz]

Situation:

Close Combat/Melee. Germans attack, Americans survive. Americans attacks back, roll 6,6 Boxcars. Per A11.22 the Defender may withdraw.


Rule:

A11.22 INFILTRATION: The simultaneous nature of CC is momentarily suspended following an Original CC DR of 2/12. Provided it has not already been eliminated/captured/pinned, any Infantry/Cavalry unit which rolls an Original 2 CC DR may withdraw from CC/Melee immediately thereafter in the same CCPh without being attacked, even if it did not eliminate the defenders (see also Field Promotions; 18.12). Any Infantry/Cavalry unit(s) attacked by an Original 12 CC DR may likewise withdraw from CC immediately thereafter, assuming it has not been eliminated by that 12 CC DR. If the option to withdraw is taken, it must be done immediately; the unit cannot wait to make its own attack (if it has not yet done so) or see the outcome of other attacks before leaving. See also Ambush Withdrawal (11.41).


Question:

Can the Germans still withdraw in this situation after having previously made a CC-attack?

Per the wording of the rules it seems they can. Am I missing something?


TIA,
von Marwitz

 

[mgmasl]

Sure.. inmediately.. so “if it has not yet done so” it may not attack back

 

[Carln0130]

Yes, they can.

 

[Gordon]

Nazi Ninjas.

 

[von Marwitz]

Thanks folks!

Then we've played it correctly.

Cheers,
von Marwitz

 

[nekengren2]

My opponent and I are debating this very rule. My take is that CC-DR=12 Infiltration only applies to the ATTACKER CC-DR. The wording seems pretty clear to me.

This text specifically refers to ATTACKER. .......it really doesn't make any sense if you try applying it to the DEFENDER.

"Any Infantry/Cavalry unit(s) attacked by an Original 12 CC DR may likewise withdraw from CC immediately thereafter, assuming it has not been eliminated by that 12 CC DR. If the option to withdraw is taken, it must be done immediately; the unit cannot wait to make its own attack (if it has not yet done so) or see the outcome of other attacks before leaving. "

Notice the text about CC-DR=2 specifically refers to ALL unit in the CC. This free WITHDRAW action makes perfect sense for both ATTACKER and DEFENDER.

"any Infantry/Cavalry unit which rolls an Original 2 CC DR may withdraw from CC/Melee immediately thereafter in the same CCPh without being attacked, even if it did not eliminate the defenders"

 

[klasmalmstrom]

There's no mention of ATTACKER (i.e., the player who's turn it is) and DEFENDER in rule A11.22. Also, the ATTACKER might not be the one that is making any CC DR first, the DEFENDER could Ambush the ATTACKER.

E.g, my DEFENDER 4-4-7 have ambushed my opponent's ATTACKER 4-6-7. I rolled a 12. Seems a bit odd if the 4-6-7 could not choose to Withdraw in this case.

 

[nekengren2]

I agree Ambush changes things.

So you don't think "attacked by an Original 12 CC DR " means ATTACKER. well maybe not.

So you don't think it strange a failed ATTACKER CC-DR was made but the ATTACKER is then allowed to leave the Location? Even though the rule specifically says decide to roll or withdraw... not both. I find that very strange.
"the unit cannot wait to make its own attack (if it has not yet done so) or see the outcome of other attacks before leaving. "

 

[Eagle4ty]

Barring another form Sequential CC (e.g. Ambush), all CC attacks are considered simultaneous even though the ATTACKER resolves all of his declared attacks first. If a DR 2/12 is made that CC becomes sequential allowing the appropriate side to immediately withdraw/infiltrate from that CC/Melee regardless of his opponent's CC/Melee attack DR [EXC: another DR=2/12 by the opponent]. the provisions of A11.12 spelling out the mechanics of CC, often get confusing when implementing the conditions of a CC/Melee DR of 2/12. I've found that both sides rolling their CC DR simultaneously (barring a mandatory Sequential CC prior to the initial CC for those units) helps alleviate the seeming conundrum of the Gordian Knot imposed by a DR of 2/12 during CC.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

So you don't think "attacked by an Original 12 CC DR " means ATTACKER. well maybe not.

Both sides "attack" during the CCPh.

So you don't think it strange a failed ATTACKER CC-DR was made but the ATTACKER is then allowed to leave the Location?

If the ATTACKER (i.e., who's Player Turn it is) roll a 6,6 then his units can't Withdraw - the opponent unit(s) may.

ATTACKER (the player whose Player Turn is currently being played).
"attacker" in the CCPh is just the side who is making CC attacks.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

In non-sequential CC any DR of 2/12 means "The simultaneous nature of CC is momentarily suspended..." - the CC does not become "true" sequential.

Per A11.22 (barring any of A11.3 sequential reasons) the ATTACKER resolves all his CC attacks first, so the ATTACKER makes all of his CC DR first. Dealing with any 2/12 DR before the DEFENDER resolves his attacks (which might now be different as when declared due to any 2/12 rolled by the ATTACKER).

 

[Vinnie]

This can be important in the end game.
I need to be in a building and advance in to CC and roll a 2. This kills the enemy and I could withdraw and avoid the attack back. Since I need to be in this building for the victory, i choose to stay amd will have to risk the attack back from the unirs that i eliminated. I only get to avoid the attack if I choose to withdraw as the roll does not turn the CC into a true sequential one.
This is unlike an ambush situation where if I eliminate the enemy, they do not get to attack back whether I choose to stay or not.

 

[FrankH.]

Barring another form Sequential CC (e.g. Ambush), all CC attacks are considered simultaneous even though the ATTACKER resolves all of his declared attacks first. If a DR 2/12 is made that CC becomes sequential allowing the appropriate side to immediately withdraw/infiltrate from that CC/Melee regardless of his opponent's CC/Melee attack DR [EXC: another DR=2/12 by the opponent]. the provisions of A11.12 spelling out the mechanics of CC, often get confusing when implementing the conditions of a CC/Melee DR of 2/12. I've found that both sides rolling their CC DR simultaneously (barring a mandatory Sequential CC prior to the initial CC for those units) helps alleviate the seeming conundrum of the Gordian Knot imposed by a DR of 2/12 during CC.

OK, but on the other hand, if the CC is sequential it is possible that the side attacking first may withdraw on a 2 DR, even if it did not eliminate all enemy units in the CC. If the withdrawl occurs and all the units withdraw, the other player, with his remaining units, is stuck without being able to make a CC DR, as there are no units left in the CC location to attack. Since he gets no attack, there is no chance of a 2 DR and therefore no chance of getting a withdrawl. I guess this is fairly evident (?) I just thought to point it out here for completeness.

If multiple units conducted the original CC 2 DR attack, not all of them need withdraw; some might stay in the CC (?) It seems. The other side then gets to attack those enemy units remaining in the CC. It seems.

 

[FrankH.]

In non-sequential CC any DR of 2/12 means "The simultaneous nature of CC is momentarily suspended..." - the CC does not become "true" sequential.

Per A11.22 (barring any of A11.3 sequential reasons) the ATTACKER resolves all his CC attacks first, so the ATTACKER makes all of his CC DR first. Dealing with any 2/12 DR before the DEFENDER resolves his attacks (which might now be different as when declared due to any 2/12 rolled by the ATTACKER).

I think you mean the DEFENDER's CC attack odds may change as some of the units he declared in his attack may be gone (withdrawn) from the CC by the time he gets his chance to attack. Assuming these DEFENDER's units are not also gone. But what if all the units in his declared attack are gone? Does he then lose his chance for a (that specific) CC attack DR?

 

[FrankH.]

This can be important in the end game.
I need to be in a building and advance in to CC and roll a 2. This kills the enemy and I could withdraw and avoid the attack back. Since I need to be in this building for the victory, i choose to stay amd will have to risk the attack back from the unirs that i eliminated. I only get to avoid the attack if I choose to withdraw as the roll does not turn the CC into a true sequential one.
This is unlike an ambush situation where if I eliminate the enemy, they do not get to attack back whether I choose to stay or not.

Ambush withdrawl, A11.41 (different to what you are referring to here) may also be important at any time in the scenario. If one needs to move to just one more hex towards an (even temporary) objective, one might (especially if concealed and/or with a good leader modifier and/or if stealthy and/or at night and/or when the other side has various CC ambush disadvantages) advance into a CC just to win an ambush, in order to withdraw into or towards that objective.

Sorry if this response is somewhat tangetial to your thought.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think you mean the DEFENDER's CC attack odds may change as some of the units he declared in his attack may be gone (withdrawn) from the CC by the time he gets his chance to attack.

Yes, that is what I wrote....sorry if that was not clear....

...before the DEFENDER resolves his attacks (which might now be different as when declared due to any 2/12 rolled by the ATTACKER).

Assuming these DEFENDER's units are not also gone. But what if all the units in his declared attack are gone? Does he then lose his chance for a (that specific) CC attack DR?

I believe so yes, you don't get to re-declare any CC attacks.