Guard goes berserk during MPh

[Andy Bagley]

This must have come up before but I can't find the answer anywhere:
A squad guarding prisoners moves (not using AM) in its MPh and is fired on; the guarding squad rolls HOB and goes berserk, and the prisoners survive. There are no other units in the location. What happens to the prisoners? A15.431 says the berserk squad must use the rest of its MPh to charge, but A20.2 means it can't take its prisoners with it, A20.4 only allows massacre during a Fire Phase, and a previous answer on this forum says that prisoners cannot be abandoned during the MPh. Help please!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think it charges and takes the Prisoners with it. A20.2 only says a berserk does not take Prisoners - but these are already taken.

 

[mgmasl]

Per A20.4 "Any bersek unit in the same location with prisoners, wether guarding them or not, will at the start of that fire phase eliminate those prisoners (thereby losing their bersek status).. If not in the same Location with prisoners, a bersek unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge"

I think if a guard goes bersek it has to stay with its prisoners and massacre them in next Fire Phase.. No charge in this case.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think if a guard goes bersek it has to stay with its prisoners and massacre them in next Fire Phase.. No charge in this case.

Were do you see that in the rules that they would be exempt from charing?

 

[mgmasl]

If not in the same Location with prisoners, a bersek unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge
I think is written here.. it may not ignore them. So they are in the hex with the enemy,, no need to charge..

 

[dlazov]

Reality speaking; a berserk unit holding prisoners would kill them without hesitation.

 

[Jazz]

Reality speaking; a berserk unit holding prisoners would kill them without hesitation.

...and there goes the penalty flag....

Well folks, play is momentarily stopped while the officials assess the reality foul. We'll be back right after this word from our sponsers......

 

[Binchois]

pop
If not in the same Location with prisoners, a bersek unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge
I think is written here.. it may not ignore them. So they are in the hex with the enemy,, no need to charge..

Unfortunately, it doesn't really say they won't charge. But I see your point! I guess you want to resolve this quasi-double negative from:

20.4 MASSACRE: ...If not in the same Location with prisoners, a berserk unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge.​

​

to:

​

If in the same Location with prisoners, a berserk unit will consider them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge.​

​

But can you charge a prisoner that you already "possess"? and even if so, is a prisoner even an "enemy unit"?

Lots of ambiguity here, but I agree with mgmasl's interpretation. I think Perry would rule this as a "no charge then massacre" situation, but they say the big guy works in mysterious ways. Still, the question should definitely be submitted (just a tweak to the RB needed to ammend).

The real question is, has this never come up before?

 

[Mister T]

If not in the same Location with prisoners, a bersek unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge
I think is written here.. it may not ignore them. So they are in the hex with the enemy,, no need to charge..

Great catch, you are right. ?

And this barbaric act having drained their energy, they are no longer berserk (A20.4).

 

[Russ Isaia]

And a new sleaze is born:

Spread those prisoners as widely as possible, particularly among the units in the front line. One to every squad or (preferably) stack. Everyone needs a cure for Berserk status that is instantly effective and works even if the prisoner is guarded by someone else in a stack.

At least it adds a motivation to take prisoners.

 

[Jazz]

And a new sleaze is born:

Hardly a sleaze at all compared to something like the "Russian Deployment B**ch" sleaze.

Gonna have to do better than that to get an entry in the Big Black Book.

 

[von Marwitz]

Lots of ambiguity here, but I agree with mgmasl's interpretation. I think Perry would rule this as a "no charge then massacre" situation, but they say the big guy works in mysterious ways. Still, the question should definitely be submitted (just a tweak to the RB needed to ammend).

I think there is not much ambiguity there: The Berserkers deal with the Prisoners in their hex. They want to kill people AT ONCE. They have some right there next to them. No need to run elsewhere to cool off.

I also support mgmasl's POV.

von Marwitz

 

[Russ Isaia]

And a new sleaze is born:

Spread those prisoners as widely as possible, particularly among the units in the front line. One to every squad or (preferably) stack. Everyone needs a cure for Berserk status that is instantly effective and works even if the prisoner is guarded by someone else in a stack.

At least it adds a motivation to take prisoners.

This is actually getting quite complicated.

As Massacre invokes a one increase in the enemy ELR, and you can't otherwise control which Berserk units use it (a member of your kill stack, or a conscript who is going to die whether he runs screaming into the street or no), you will want to be selective with your disposition of prisoners. Perhaps put one in any stack with a -2 or -3 leader to vaccinate the leader against a Berserk charge. I think the leader might need a weapon so he can "designate" the prisoner as his "target" but as there is no shooting involved perhaps not (apparently Massacre involves an early adaptation of the weirding module of Dune).

BTW, if a leader and three squads are in a Location with a single prisoner unit and all become Berserk, can they all claim to be the "they" (from A20.4) that Massacred the prisoner? A FG firing squad as it where, and a definite case of overkill. Still, "Infantry" is a collective term: "all SMCs and MMCs counters on foot". Must a Q&A on that. I'm off to check.

Edited: there is a Q&A that says one unit may massacre multiple prisoner units but not whether multiple units can claim to have massacred the same prisoner unit.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Hardly a sleaze at all compared to something like the "Russian Deployment B**ch" sleaze.

Gonna have to do better than that to get an entry in the Big Black Book.

Sleaze is sleaze, whether USDA Prime Beef, or fit only for beef bouillion cubes.

 

[Russ Isaia]

The real question is, has this never come up before?

As a question here on Gamesquad? Yes. http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/beserk-charge-and-prisoners.8981/

Interestingly, that thread ends with Brian W opining that massacring prisoners constitutes the use of a SW for purposes of determining the firing unit's further fire opportunities. Not what I expected from "as if using a SW."

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Interestingly, that thread ends with Brian W opining that massacring prisoners constitutes the use of a SW for purposes of determining the firing unit's further fire opportunities. Not what I expected from "as if using a SW."

Personally, I would interpret "as if using a SW" exactly that.

Q&A as well:

A20.4
Can a Guard/Berserker eliminate only 1 prisoner counter in an A20.4 situation? Does each prisoner eliminated count as a SW use?
Or can ≤ all prisoners be eliminated at the “cost” of a single SW use?
A. It can eliminate as many prisoner counters as it wants for its SW usage.

 

[Andy Bagley]

Thanks guys, really interesting discussion. I too will go with mgmasl's interpretation - it's that phrase "If not in the same Location with prisoners" that seems to clinch it.
This can have odd consequences though. When this occured in our game, the guarding squad was moving forward to a more aggressive position. Having them go berserk has the effect of stopping them in their tracks (rather like a Pin except they can move in the APh), which is perhaps not what you'd expect from a berserk unit. But I agree it's the best interpretation of the rules.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Personally, I would interpret "as if using a SW" exactly that.

Q&A as well:

A20.4
Can a Guard/Berserker eliminate only 1 prisoner counter in an A20.4 situation? Does each prisoner eliminated count as a SW use?
Or can ≤ all prisoners be eliminated at the “cost” of a single SW use?
A. It can eliminate as many prisoner counters as it wants for its SW usage.

I saw that, and as always the problem I have is how to get there from words of the rule. "[A]s if using a SW" does not say there are exceptions to the hypothetical nature of the exercise and mentions only one consequence from the hypothetical exercise: death of the prisoners.

But I get it: them's the rules/official interpretations. And in future I'll include a prisoner in my quality officer kill stack, particularly if Russian or otherwise particularly susceptible to going to Berserk (not clear if he needs a hypothetical SW to engage in the hypothetical firing resulting the actual massacre and actual Prep Fire/First Fire/Defensive Fire/Adv Fire counter). Of course, actual here "under the rules".

 

[Jazz]

Sleaze is sleaze, whether USDA Prime Beef, or fit only for beef bouillion cubes.

I beg to differ. Not to a true connoisseur.

Nothing quite like a good cut of sleaze. Good Sear on the outside but deep pink inside.

 

[Larry]

20.4 ... Any berserk unit in the same Location with prisoners, whether guarding them or not, will at the start of that fire phase eliminate those prisoners (thereby losing their berserk status)."

15.46 RETURN TO NORMAL: A berserk unit loses its berserk status and returns to Good Order whenever it (or the group it attacks with) eliminates all (but at least one) Known enemy units in its Location with either TPBF (halved) or FT during the AFPh or CC, or if at the end of a charge there is no Known enemy unit in its LOS (15.431).

The berserk unit has no choice, it must kill all the prisoners in their location. It it doesn't kill all, the unit cannot lose berserk status.