Dinant traffic management

[sdennis]

So Carl and others... can Dinant be spoiled by bad traffic management?
Neil had a thought that than came true to some extent during our scenario.
The question is, if the French put EVERYTHING in position to kill trucks and/or ACs on the narrow streets could you effectively end the CG because no vehicles could get to the shore? Especially the pontoons?

So the example in our game was Neil brought 2 trucks with Pontoons down the river road in the PP/QQ row. At some point the lead truck ended up in QQ49 I think in bypass, motion with the other one behind him in QQ50. I was looking for random targets for my MTR and realized I could see him, 5 TH at 46 hex range, motion +2 and of course I rolled a 3 followed by the 7 to immobilize him. So at this point as far as we can tell those pontoons AND THE ONES BEHIND are "dead"!
Can't unload in bypass, can't reverse while towing, can't push the wreck out of the way with a heavier vehicle on a narrow street... Did we miss anything (it turns out I shot at the hex containing the trail truck to hit the infantry in the bulding and killed it anyhow but still the concept is the question here.
can't tow in bypass except on a narrow road either

If we understand it correctly than that the pontoons MUST travel down these narrow streets to unload their cargo...

Imagine if the French setup for and pulled off the following on narrow roads:

wreck in QQ48 (blocks all traffic from the connecting roads)
wreck in SS47/RR47
wreck in SS47/TT46
wreck in WW39/WW40
wreck in SS25/TT24 (I think you can hit this from DD4/DD3)
wreck in TT22 (is a wreck on a woods road enough to block it?)

If you managed to do this, does it really mean that NO pontoons can get down to the shore?
I suppose you could unload in WW26 and try to manhandle them 6 hexes through buildings??

Again, even blocking SOME of those roads would make it VERY difficult on the Germans...

I've blocked several of them and the other CG had a sniper effectively do the same thing if I remember...

If we have this right, it sort of turns the German side into a civil engineering project in traffic management doesn't it?

 

[von Marwitz]

The question is, if the French put EVERYTHING in position to kill trucks and/or ACs on the narrow streets could you effectively end the CG because no vehicles could get to the shore?

As Germans are fond of clear roads and fast traffic, I can provide you with a resolute German approach of keeping the streets of Dinant free of Wrecks:

"D10.4 REMOVAL: Wrecks may be removed from play in either of two ways:

D10.41 FIRE: Any wreck in a terrain Blaze is removed.

D10.42 PUSHING: A wreck is removed at the end of the MPh by any tracked AFV (whose weight is ≥ 90% of the wreck's weight) which remains mobile while expending half of its MP allotment (in addition to any MP cost for entry of the wreck's hex) in that wreck's Location solely for that purpose."

And here comes the catch:
Did the designers of Dinant provide a weight for bridge-carrying vehicles (in case these have special counters, which I don't know)?

Cheers,
von Marwitz

 

[sdennis]

I thought my brother saw a rule that said no pushing on a narrow street?

 

[boylermaker]

Yup, D31.136: No wreck (or Immobile Vehicle) on a Narrow Street may be Removed as per D10.4

 

[von Marwitz]

Yup, D31.136: No wreck (or Immobile Vehicle) on a Narrow Street may be Removed as per D10.4

Good spot! I missed that one.

Indeed there seems to be no way in which to eliminate the wreck except for destroying a building and Falling Rubble. The latter might eliminate the wreck but of course won't help to clear a road at all.

So the only way to get rid of a Wreck and to Clear the Narrow Street that I see would be first to eliminate the Wreck by destroying a mults story building, hoping that Falling Rubble will eliminate the Wreck. Then afterwards, you could attempt Clearance by the normal B24.7 Clearance process. Of course, this method is of no practical use whatsoever...

von Marwitz

 

[Carln0130]

We had several playing's of the CG and that never became a factor. Now, do the Germans have to be careful of that? Yes, also, there are other ways to get those vehicles into the battle. One might just have to prepare specifically to make those approaches safe. I don't want to go into too much detail, as I am still holding out to throw some thoughts out after the CG, but if you get totally screwed due to this, you will be the first to do so.

As regards bridge limits, there are no limits on the 16 tons, the 8 tons do have some limits on weight capacity, but no danger of collapse. If you are over the limit, you don't go. These aren't rickety Bridges that no one has an idea as to the weight limits of, but rather Pontoons put up by your engineers, that have known parameters.

 

[sdennis]

Thanks Carl for the response... Neil was proposing this as a French strategy. i.e. setup to do EXACTLY this in any way possible. With the OBA (harrassing fire maybe) I think it is POSSIBLE.
If it fails... I think it's over for the French though.
I think on the woods road you CAN push any wreck out of the way though, just not on the narrow streets as previously itemized.

 

[The Purist]

Having only played the first scenario as the French I am a bit perplexed by an apparent German player fascination with charging down to the river to throw their pontoons into the water in the morning scenario or early in the afternoon.

From the cliffs above the western shoreline this is exactly what the French would want. Those SdKfz 7s are easy meat for anything larger than a solid hit from a rock. If they are purchased in the morning, it seems to me best top park 'em in the back streets until the danger has been largely supressed. The German player can bring a hurricane of fire onto any French troops that remain exposed along the western shore and heights both in the morning and afternoon.

If I understand the unloading and construction rules correctly, an 8-ton bridge can be constructed in 3-4 turns using extra eng'r squads, eng'r SMC w/ '-' mods and Rommel, even though the SdKfz 7 is too heavy to enter the first bridge section put in place.

 

[Den589]

Having only played the first scenario as the French I am a bit perplexed by this German fascination with charging down to the river to throw their pontoons into the water in the morning scenario.

From the cliffs above the western shoreline this is exactly what the French would want. Those SdKfz 7s are easy meat for anything larger than a solid hit from a rock. If they are purchased in the morning, park 'em in the back streets until the danger has been largely supressed. The German player can bring a hurricane of fire onto any French troops that remain exposed along the western shore and heights both in the morning and afternoon.

I think Soldat Claude Auguste de l'Bardin-de Proulx-d'Montbelliard , the grouchy French infantryman from the 66e Regiment d'Infantrie put it best this past weekend when he advised my opponent:

Calmez-vous, M. Allemand, s'il vous plait. Vous avez tout le temps de balayer la rive opposée avec le feu. Le pont n’est pas nécessaire avant la fin de l’après-midi.

Eh,.... 'ow yu say in zee Inglish. Relax. Oui? Dreenk sum whyne, eet sum cheese, catchez sum,.... umm, err, 'ow yu say,..."sunshine". Le soliel. Oui?

De telles tâches doivent être abordées philosophiquement. Le pont doit être placé lorsque le moment est venu, pas avant. Cela perturberait autrement l’équilibre.

D'accord?

That said, both Claude and I could be wrong. ?

I was scared to buy them the first day for exactly that reason. I've almost cleared the heights; all except for a single big mortar at the very north end. The shot that hurt was a 46+ shot at a motion vehicle needing a 3, I didn't see it and/or expect that shot, which is on me i guess. That being said, I bought mortars and the PZIVD company to place smoke in the way of this annoying mortar, but failed to get smoke with all 3 mortars. If any of them placed smoke this shot never occurs. But that's part of the game, I guess!!!!!

The planes will now attempt to get rid of the most annoying mortar known to man.........

 

[Carln0130]

Having only played the first scenario as the French I am a bit perplexed by an apparent German player fascination with charging down to the river to throw their pontoons into the water in the morning scenario or early in the afternoon.

From the cliffs above the western shoreline this is exactly what the French would want. Those SdKfz 7s are easy meat for anything larger than a solid hit from a rock. If they are purchased in the morning, it seems to me best top park 'em in the back streets until the danger has been largely supressed. The German player can bring a hurricane of fire onto any French troops that remain exposed along the western shore and heights both in the morning and afternoon.

If I understand the unloading and construction rules correctly, an 8-ton bridge can be constructed in 3-4 turns using extra eng'r squads, eng'r SMC w/ '-' mods and Rommel, even though the SdKfz 7 is too heavy to enter the first bridge section put in place.

True that with the 8 tonners. Some Fritz elbow grease is required, and additional exposure to risk.

 

[phlegm027]

Trying to build a bridge with the French being able to bring fire on the crossing point is a crap shoot. The Germans shouldn’t be interested. In a crap shoot. They should secure a section of the river and the cliffs above. It’s a lot easier to build a bridge in a secured area.securing such an area probably won’t happen often in the morning of May 13 (the first CG scenario.)

 

[The Purist]

The traffic issue for the Germans appears to be a serious problem from as early as the 13AM scenario if the Germans bring in pontoons , boats or other units in trucks. French OBA (even drifting FFE) and a SAN of 4 could find soft skin vehicles immobilised or destroyed and potentially blocking the access to the river. The French Sniper markers, cleverly placed may end up causing no end of grief to the Germans, forcing them to deploy HS or S to draw off snipers.

Looking through the rules I think I may have twigged onto a method by which the German players can reduce the traffic backlog but I will add one caveat due to an apparent rules contradiction (I'll go through this at the end).

CG 4.6151 Reinforcements notes the following:

Retained and newly purchased RG and other reinforcements will be placed off board at the appropriate Friendly entry area in the RPh of their first ATTACKER Player Turn; they can also be retained off board for the rest of the CG Scenario in a single Holding Box...

So right away we see that one or more RG can delay entry by an entire CG Scenario. This may be important to German players who want to have 8-ton pontoon bought and ready to go from the 13AM Scenario (**NB: see the Caveat below).

The rules goes on to state:

For each such RG that is not retained off board and does not set up for entry in its first ATTACKER Player RPh, make Reinforcement dr each subsequent RPh. If the dr is less than the current turn number, the RG must enter that turn or be retained off board for the rest of CG Scenario in a single Holding Box...

This would appear to tell us that an RG who does not like the look of the current congestion east of the river could choose to delay entry to a later turn but run the risk being delayed further by a bad dr. If the RG still doesn't like the looks of the traffic by the turn of arrival then they would have to be placed in a holding box and enter in a later CG scenario.

Now the caveat

This all seems to be contradicted by DN CG8 which states (final paragraph right hand column page DN 11):

... If a Friendly RG is set up off-board for entry and chooses not to enter that turn, it is eliminated from the game....

I was thinking that this may apply only if one of their entry areas is occupied by enemy units but thought it best to check.

So,... in summary which is correct?

For each such RG that is not retained off board and does not set up for entry in its first ATTACKER Player RPh, make Reinforcement dr each subsequent RPh. If the dr is less than the current turn number, the RG must enter that turn or be retained off board for the rest of CG Scenario in a single Holding Box...

Or

... If a Friendly RG is set up off-board for entry and chooses not to enter that turn, it is eliminated from the game....

The answer could have notable implications for the Germans.

Cheers.

 

[boylermaker]

I think the idea is this:

1. During the RePh, you figure out what counters belong to each RG. These counters are placed in "limbo", some state that is not considered "set up".
2. At the beginning of the first rally phase, you have to decide what to do with your RGs that are in limbo. You can set them up offboard for entry. If you do that, then they have to enter or be eliminated (your second-quoted rule). Or you can keep them in limbo.
3. At the beginning of subsequent rally phases, you make a dr (your first-quoted rule) for every RG that is still in limbo. That determines whether or not they can stay in limbo.

 

[The Purist]

I tend to agree but CG 8 is pretty blunt

I would add that if you only wanted some of the troops in limbo to enter on a given turn if allowed by the dr (ie: armoured cars) but still wanted to wait and see before risking the pontoon sections, you could do so. However, one would have to make this decision before rolling the reinforcement dr.

Furthermore, does CG 4.6151 apply to the initial scenario as well? Or is it "must enter the map, a holding box or be eliminated as per CG 8. Again, I think 'limbo' would apply as there is the 'sword' symbol, but....

 

[Carln0130]

I was thinking that this may apply only if one of their entry areas is occupied by enemy units but thought it best to check.

So,... in summary which is correct?

That last sentence is to prevent someone from physically setting the units up as a feint and then saying nevermind and pulling them off to a holding box. So:
If you purchase the RG and decide, nah, not bringing it in turn one, you roll for later entry on turns 2 Plus.
If on turn, for the sake of example, let's say, 3, you roll low enough for the RG to come in, you can set it up for entry and enter OR delay its entry. What you cannot do, is set it up for entry to decoy your opponent and then say, nope, just kidding and pull it off after. This is what this rule means and is intended to prevent. Os in the Rally Phase, when you succeed in making that dr for entry, you have to commit to an in or out, no half measure at that time. If you set up, you are going to be entering. If you waive the setup, you go into a holding box, but no gamesmanship with that decision. You are in or out.

It also does give latitude to some RG's who may have their entry areas, if not blocked then at least under heavy overwatch to just remain in a holding box rather than just get creamed and gives the player some ability to change his fortunes in an area before committing fresh forces, but once setup for entry, you are committed.

 

[The Purist]

Ok,... but this bit in bold...

For each such RG that is not retained off board and does not set up for entry in its first ATTACKER Player RPh, make Reinforcement dr each subsequent RPh. If the dr is less than the current turn number, the RG must enter that turn or be retained off board for the rest of CG Scenario in a single Holding Box...

...would seem to imply that you must choose one or more RG and roll for entry. If the dr is successful you must enter or be placed in the holding box. I would assume that one must identify all the RG(s) that are being tasked for entry and cannot wait on dr result before deciding.

So, no "I'll try for RG entry",.. roll d6,.."oh great, everybody is coming on"

(I hope that makes sense)

 

[phlegm027]

1. Each group that doesn’t enter on T1 gets put in a Holding Box.
2. Each Turn after that Each RG must make a dr.
3. If the dr is ☇ the current Turn # the group must decide immediately either enter or be done for the scenario.

Never said it was going to be easy getting vehicles to the far shore.

 

[Carln0130]

Ok,... but this bit in bold...



...would seem to imply that you must choose one or more RG and roll for entry. If the dr is successful you must enter or be placed in the holding box. I would assume that one must identify all the RG(s) that are being tasked for entry and cannot wait on dr result before deciding.

So, no "I'll try for RG entry",.. roll d6,.."oh great, everybody is coming on"

(I hope that makes sense)

First, it is not that common that people do hold RG'S off. However, if you do decide to do so, it is rarer still to hold multiple RG off, but let's go with that happens. If they both (or more) happen to roll their entry on the same turn, then yes, you would make a call with them right then effectively. Certainly no one is going to set up off map and then call it off without entry with this rule in place and that is exactly it's intent and whole purpose for being. You are forced to make a call.

 

[The Purist]

Ok,.... each RG held back rolls each turn and its "go" or "wait until the next scenario".

That is clear.

Thanks to both of you.

 

[Carln0130]

Ok,.... each RG held back rolls each turn and its "go" or "wait until the next scenario".

That is clear.

Thanks to both of you.

Yup, exactly.