Gully brush hinderance

[Will Fleming]

Assuming I didn't botch the gully rules and that an LOS exists between L6 and L8, but does not go through the brush on both sides of the thread, does the shot get +1 hinderance?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Yes it does, per B19.21:
"19.21 A combination gully-woods hex (5Z8) is still a one level obstacle, and a combination gully-brush hex (12CC9) is still a 0 level LOS Hindrance; assuming the woods/brush is on both sides of the gully depiction, the same is true at level -1."

 

[Pacman Ghost]

an LOS exists between L6 and L8

I think this is what we were disagreeing about From B19.2:

A unit IN a gully cannot see any other Depression hex unless it is adjacent and connected by a Depression hexside, or the LOS can be drawn to another gully hex without leaving the combination brown, dark green background.

I'm saying that the LOS is drawn between the 2 hex centres, and while it's close, it really looks like the LOS leaves the gully depiction:

If, however, the LOS did exist, then I think the brush hindrance applies. From B19.21:

... a combination gully-brush hex (12CC9) is still a 0 level LOS Hindrance; assuming the woods/brush is on both sides of the gully depiction, the same is true at level -1.

 

[A_T_Great]

I think this is what we were disagreeing about From B19.2:

I'm saying that the LOS is drawn between the 2 hex centres, and while it's close, it really looks like the LOS leaves the gully depiction:
View attachment 13049
If, however, the LOS did exist, then I think the brush hindrance applies. From B19.21:

The Gully depiction is the brown stripe, and the green surrounding it. Since the level ground to the left of the thread can't be seen on th right of the thread, the LOS does not leave the gully depiction.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Are you sure those gullies are not in fact paths? What board is this?

 

[mgmasl]

They are paths.. Gullys artwork is different

 

[Pacman Ghost]

Are you sure those gullies are not in fact paths? What board is this?

Kakazu Ridge. The thought had occurred to me, but the tails of the depictions definitely look more gully-like than path-ish. And I can't check it right now, but I'm sure the rules talk about them being gullies.

Will has to fight his way up 6 or 7 levels of this most disgusting terrain, so I'm quite happy for them to be gullies

 

[Russ Isaia]

Kakazu Ridge. The thought had occurred to me, but the tails of the depictions definitely look more gully-like than path-ish. And I can't check it right now, but I'm sure the rules talk about them being gullies.

Will has to fight his way up 6 or 7 levels of this most disgusting terrain, so I'm quite happy for them to be gullies

You are quite right. But don't look at the VASL version: that adaptation of the map lacks the green fringe that traditionally forms part of the gully, turning it from an apparent path into a gully. The original printed map does have the fringe, even (faintly) into the hexes included above.

So, it is intended to be a gully (actually, a single gully system). But, here is the irony: you can only see that on the original map and on that map the LOS does not leave the gully or fringe in L6. The artwork is just different between the two versions. So the debate should shift to L7, were it does arguably leave the gully and fringe but only on the original, not the VASL version.

 

[Will Fleming]

Paths! That is what they are then. My struggle up the hill will be much easier now!!

 

[Will Fleming]

As for the luxury of touching physical gaming components, I think my opponent and I won't be doing that anytime soon. My counters and maps are essentially in a different plane of existence 2,600 miles away and probably 6-12 months in time ahead (or behind) me.

His situation is a little better in time, but worse in distance--perhaps, but similar in both.

 

[von Marwitz]

The Gully depiction is the brown stripe, and the green surrounding it. Since the level ground to the left of the thread can't be seen on th right of the thread, the LOS does not leave the gully depiction.

"B19.1 Gullies are relatively narrow slits carved into the earth by once powerful streams. A hex such as 12CC6 containing a thin, meandering black line enclosed in a light brown background which, in turn, is enclosed in a dark green background is a gully. ..."

The green on your map is identical to the Open Ground part of the hex around, and not dark green. So this is not a gully at all, but indeed a path.

I admit that the brown background has more a gully-like appearance than a path-like appearance. If it is intended to be a gully, then the artwork is imperfect. If you play it as a Gully, then I would say this "gully" would merely consist of the brown part and no green part at all.

von Marwitz

 

[von Marwitz]

Kakazu Ridge.

You are quite right. But don't look at the VASL version: that adaptation of the map lacks the green fringe that traditionally forms part of the gully, turning it from an apparent path into a gully. The original printed map does have the fringe, even (faintly) into the hexes included above.

That explains it.

But it will be quite an issue for your game. IIRC there are numerous gullies in Kakazu Ridge and they are not inimportant terrain features for that setting. With that VASL map, you are incapable to determine the 'extent' of the gullies as they were printed on the original map. Normally, the golden rule is that the map you play on is the map that determines LOS. But with the role Gullies can play in Kakazu, this seems no viable way to handle this.

Basically, a 'correct' VASL map would be needed. Or you agree to string LOS in relevant cases on a paper version.

von Marwitz

 

[hongkongwargamer]

As for the luxury of touching physical gaming components, I think my opponent and I won't be doing that anytime soon. My counters and maps are essentially in a different plane of existence 2,600 miles away and probably 6-12 months in time ahead (or behind) me.

His situation is a little better in time, but worse in distance--perhaps, but similar in both.

The PDF version of the physical map is now available here for $4 if you get desperate about it
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/309895/Kakazu-Ridge-HASL-Map?src=newest

 

[Russ Isaia]

Paths! That is what they are then. My struggle up the hill will be much easier now!!

"B19.1 Gullies are relatively narrow slits carved into the earth by once powerful streams. A hex such as 12CC6 containing a thin, meandering black line enclosed in a light brown background which, in turn, is enclosed in a dark green background is a gully. ..."

The green on your map is identical to the Open Ground part of the hex around, and not dark green. So this is not a gully at all, but indeed a path.

I admit that the brown background has more a gully-like appearance than a path-like appearance. If it is intended to be a gully, then the artwork is imperfect. If you play it as a Gully, then I would say this "gully" would merely consist of the brown part and no green part at all.

von Marwitz

I think B19.1 is only describing an example (12CC6), based on the colors appropriate for the elevations involved in that example. If you look at the original KR map, and the full map, you'll see that the "paths" are continuations of what is undoubtedly a gully at its initial reaches.

But heh, whatever Will F. can persuade Sgt. Blinky of.

What I am interested in is why gullies would not be more helpful to Will F. then paths. Surely, some of units IN those gullys will be out of LOS as they creep uphill on the enemy.

 

[Pacman Ghost]

His situation is a little better in time, but worse in distance--perhaps, but similar in both.

Funny you should say that. I've just today got back into my hometown, which I haven't been in for well over ten years, crashing in a friend's shed, where my ASL stuff has been stored for the past twenty or so years

 

[Pacman Ghost]

What I am interested in is why gullies would not be more helpful to Will F. then paths. Surely, some of units IN those gullys will be out of LOS as they creep uphill on the enemy.

Because the MF costs are brutal. We're playing J13 The Gorge; he has to cover about 9 hexes in 9 turns

 

[R Hooks]

I think this is what we were disagreeing about From B19.2:

I'm saying that the LOS is drawn between the 2 hex centres, and while it's close, it really looks like the LOS leaves the gully depiction:
View attachment 13049
If, however, the LOS did exist, then I think the brush hindrance applies. From B19.21:

I don't think the Firers hex can block his fire, suppose a building hex has an outhouse in the back yard between the center dot and the hexside, is fire ever blocked?

 

[Russ Isaia]

Because the MF costs are brutal. We're playing J13 The Gorge; he has to cover about 9 hexes in 9 turns

Under the heading - always check the VC!

 

[Rock SgtDan]

I think B19.1 is only describing an example (12CC6), based on the colors appropriate for the elevations involved in that example. If you look at the original KR map, and the full map, you'll see that the "paths" are continuations of what is undoubtedly a gully at its initial reaches.

Is there a rulebook illustration & explanation of how a path within a gully is depicted?

 

[Russ Isaia]

Is there a rulebook illustration & explanation of how a path within a gully is depicted?

To my knowledge there is not a single instance of a "path-gully" hex in the MMP (or predecessor) ASL products ala a "brush-gully" or "woods-gully" hexes. Or a "path-woods-gully" hex. I guarantee my knowledge is not complete, just never come across one personally.