Bounding Fire Question

Nameless Jay

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A rule question came up. British tank has a German tank acquired (-2) and wishes to kill the German and also move. So the British tank passes on the Prep Fire Phase, instead it will wait for Movement phase and BFF before starting and moving. What are the modifiers? I thought it would be +2 for Case B, and -2 for Acquired. My opponent thought that the Acq would be forfieted in the Movement phase, and Case C for a turreted vehicle (an additional +2) would also be applicable even though the British tank had not yet spent a Start MP or changed hexes. As it turned out, the TH DR was low enough to hit in either case, but I would like to get this right for future reference. What do the rules geniuses say?
 

Eagle4ty

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C5.33 lays it out for the Bounding Fire Modifiers to be used in firing prior to using a MP, use Case C (which includes Case B) even if you hadn't expended a MP to start or entered a new hex. So the modifiers would be for whatever type of T or NT ordnance your firing plus a +2 for Case B (and BU, Stun +1 or whatever). If the firing unit had not initiated any actions that are covered in C6.5 for the loss of Acquisition previously it may be used for the shot at the start of a MPh prior to expending a start MP.
 

klasmalmstrom

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If the firing unit had not initiated any actions that are covered in C6.5 for the loss of Acquisition previously it may be used for the shot at the start of a MPh prior to expending a start MP.
Only if the tank is equipped with a gyrostabilizer though.

C6.55:
"Only a Stabilized Gun (D11.1) may claim/retain its Acquisition DRM for Motion/Bounding-First Fire TH attempts..."
 

Eagle4ty

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Only if the tank is equipped with a gyrostabilizer though.

C6.55:
"Only a Stabilized Gun (D11.1) may claim/retain its Acquisition DRM for Motion/Bounding-First Fire TH attempts..."
Always thought that only applied to B1F if the vehicle had moved but can see it may apply to all B1Fs.?
 

von Marwitz

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Only if the tank is equipped with a gyrostabilizer though.

C6.55:
"Only a Stabilized Gun (D11.1) may claim/retain its Acquisition DRM for Motion/Bounding-First Fire TH attempts..."
Is the tank already considered to be in Motion when having expended to or only its Start MP? I always thought at that time, you would still get the Point Blank modifier for example. And my thought would have been that it would not yet have lost its acquisition even without a Gyrostabilizer.

"C6.5 CASE N; ACQUIRED TARGET: When a Gun (including the MA and SA [Secondary Armament, as per Chapter H Vehicle Listings] of vehicles [EXC: not FT or LATW]) of ≥ 20mm other than a mortar fires at (not Interdicts) a Known unit or a bridge, it may place a ½" -1 Acquired counter on its target (or flip over an already present -1 counter to the -2 side), and this Acquired counter then applies as a TH DRM for subsequent shots by that Gun [EXC: Acquisition DRM cannot be used for Deliberate Immobilization attempts; (5.71); see also 6.54-.57]. A target can be acquired by more than one Gun, but no target is subject to more than a -2 Acquisition DRM per Gun. The target remains acquired until the Gun/manning-Infantry that placed it leaves its present Location [EXC: Gyrostabilizer; 6.55]—or the Gun changes its CA without firing on its already-acquired target during the current phase—or the Gun (or its CMG unless in a separate turret) attacks (including in CC, or Interdicts) a different target—or the Gun malfunctions or fires SMOKE (6.56), canister or IFE—or its crew/manning-Infantry are eliminated or not in Good Order, or they no longer possess it, or they fire Inherent FP/SW or use Interdiction, or they (un)limber/dm it—or the target is no longer in their LOS after entering a new Location/vertex-(see 6.15) (although in this case the last in-LOS Location occupied by the target will remain acquired; 6.51)."


That said, the defending unit could declare a Gun Duel against this attempted shot if the attacker has not yet spent any MP, which it would likely win.

"C5.33 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE: A vehicle First Firing during its own MPh, and having had a continuous LOS to its target for > three MP uses the Case C To Hit DRM. A vehicle wishing to fire at the start of its MPh prior to entry of a new hex (or one that has had a continuous LOS to its target since before the MPh) may do so using Case C; it need not expend Delay MP first to avoid having to use Case C1 or C2. If the Bounding First Firer vehicle declares a shot prior to any MP expenditure, a DEFENDER can still declare a Gun Duel (2.2401) that he might win (due to the Bounding First Firer's use of TH Case C), and thus he could fire before the vehicle expends any MP."

von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

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Is the tank already considered to be in Motion when having expended to or only its Start MP?
Motion, no (but Motion is only a state outside of the vehicle's MPh). It is, however, Non-Stopped as soon as the Start MP is expended. It would not be a moving target (C.8) yet though.


I always thought at that time, you would still get the Point Blank modifier for example. And my thought would have been that it would not yet have lost its acquisition even without a Gyrostabilizer.
The Point Blank modifier does not apply vs Non-Stopped vehicles, so that becomes NA as soon as the Start MP is expended.

C6.3:
"...unless firing at a Motion/Non-Stopped vehicle..."


Per C6.55:
"Only a Stabilized Gun (D11.1) may claim/retain its Acquisition DRM for Motion/Bounding-First Fire TH attempts..."

You need a gyro to "claim/retain" an Acquisition DRM for a Bounding First Fire (i.e., during the MPh) TH attempt - does not matter if the vehicle is Stopped/Non-Stopped/moving-target.
 

Nameless Jay

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It would seem that we played correctly. Case B + C (total DRM +4) and the loss of acquisition, for a net DRM change of 6. Thanks for the answers.
 

von Marwitz

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Per C6.55:
"Only a Stabilized Gun (D11.1) may claim/retain its Acquisition DRM for Motion/Bounding-First Fire TH attempts..."

You need a gyro to "claim/retain" an Acquisition DRM for a Bounding First Fire (i.e., during the MPh) TH attempt - does not matter if the vehicle is Stopped/Non-Stopped/moving-target.
So technically, as long as the firer does not leave its Location, the target remains Acquired, but the Acquisition DRM cannot be used?

von Marwitz
 

Mister T

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I think they forgot to take into account the very specific case described in C5.33 when drafting C6.55. It should be an EXC to C6.55 (just like it is for Gun duel rules (C2.2401)).
 

klasmalmstrom

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So technically, as long as the firer does not leave its Location, the target remains Acquired, but the Acquisition DRM cannot be used?
I think so, unless you actually fire in the MPh - then I believe you lose the Acquistion - since C6.55 says "retain an Acquisition DRM" - I take this to mean "retain Acquisition". There might be a Q&A on this.

Edit: found this Q&A, which I think means Acquistion is lost when the Start MP is expended, as I think that is what "goes into motion" means in the Q&A.

C6.5 & C6.55
A non-gyrostabilizer vehicle with Acquisition goes into motion without leaving the location or changing CA. Provided the vehicle
does not fire, is that Acquisition lost immediately? If no, can the vehicle change VCA if the Acquisition is from a turret mounted
weapon that maintains the same CA and still retain its Acquisition? Would your answer be different if the weapon was bow
mounted and the TCA was the one that changed?
A. Immediately. NA. No.
 

Binchois

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So technically, as long as the firer does not leave its Location, the target remains Acquired, but the Acquisition DRM cannot be used?

von Marwitz
I think they forgot to take into account the very specific case described in C5.33 when drafting C6.55. It should be an EXC to C6.55 (just like it is for Gun duel rules (C2.2401)).
I know folks hate reality arguments, but I like the rule as Klas has explained it. To me, a Prep Firer is focused on the enemy and using "all of the available time" to aim and fire (possibly getting multiple shots off, no matter how many times you get to roll the dice - see footnote 8, Chapter C).

As soon as you decide to wait until the MPh, you are admitting that the commander's patience is short, that the crew is doing several things at once, that the AFV wishes to perform other actions, and that your roll of the dice may represent literally one quick shot in an attempt to "just get on with it."

So it seems reasonable to me that the AQ both won't apply to any Bounding Fire shot, and yet may "reappear" should true vehicle ultimately not go anywhere.
 

von Marwitz

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I think so, unless you actually fire in the MPh - then I believe you lose the Acquistion - since C6.55 says "retain an Acquisition DRM" - I take this to mean "retain Acquisition". There might be a Q&A on this.

Edit: found this Q&A, which I think means Acquistion is lost when the Start MP is expended, as I think that is what "goes into motion" means in the Q&A.

C6.5 & C6.55
A non-gyrostabilizer vehicle with Acquisition goes into motion without leaving the location or changing CA. Provided the vehicle
does not fire, is that Acquisition lost immediately? If no, can the vehicle change VCA if the Acquisition is from a turret mounted
weapon that maintains the same CA and still retain its Acquisition? Would your answer be different if the weapon was bow
mounted and the TCA was the one that changed?
A. Immediately. NA. No.

"C.8 MOVING VEHICULAR TARGET: A vehicle is considered a moving target for To Hit/Effects purposes only if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, or used VBM (D2.3), or began its MPh in Motion (D2.4), or is currently in Motion. A Stopped (D2.13) vehicle is also treated as moving if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, used VBM, or began its MPh in Motion. Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure. Expenditure of MP for other purposes (such as loading/unloading, Bog Removal attempts, or VCA changes) do not by themselves qualify a vehicle as a moving target although they too allow Defensive First Fire shots vs it."

The Q&A might not apply here because it refers to motion vehicles. But even, if not 'motion' buy 'moving' vehicle would be meant, it would seem not to be applicable.

Our vehicle in question begins Stopped and not in Motion. Before having spent (and even after that) a Start MP it is not even a moving target.

"D2.12 STARTING: A vehicle not under a Motion counter must expend one MP to start movement before entering a new hex or changing its VCA during the MPh. Unless Reverse Movement (2.2) is declared, forward movement is assumed. The Starting MP expenditure is considered to take place in the currently occupied hex (thereby making it subject to Defensive First Fire in that hex although not as a moving target; C.8). A Starting MP expenditure is not necessary if entering from offboard because such units are assumed to have set up in Motion (A2.52)."


von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

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The Q&A might not apply here because it refers to motion vehicles. But even, if not 'motion' buy 'moving' vehicle would be meant, it would seem not to be applicable.
Pretty sure that "going into motion" in the Q&A means "Start MP" - since the rest of the Q&A says "without leaving the location or changing CA" - that's typcially things you do in the MPh.

Anyway, C.8 (moving target) does not come into effect with regards to Acquisiton - that's not a factor.
 

klasmalmstrom

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And in the case of spending an initial delay MP? The AFV would not be non-stop.
If you start the MPh by expending a Delay MP (not needed to make a BFF attack, btw) the vehicle is still Stopped. It still would not get any Acquisition DRM unless it has a gyro.
 
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Eagle4ty

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I'm a (recent/belated) convert to Klas' interpretation of not being able to use acquisition, however note you do not need to spend a Delay MP in order to initially fire in the MPh. Fire comes before or after a MP expenditure (think of it as occurring in the time-space before/between/after MP expenditures).
 
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