Interest in systems.

[Honza]

My whole life I have had an interest in systems. My feeling is that if you understand the system by which something works then you have understood the most important part of the subject.

The reason why I bring this up is because ASL is a system. A multi applicable system for gaming WWII and similar battles. The ASL system is very well thought out and efficient. Another gaming system which come close to ASL in ingenuity is D&D.

Simply put I love the ASL system. It glides like a snake across the desert with its refinement.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Man. That's a proper Honza post, that is.

 

[Tuomo]

Man. That's a proper Honza post, that is.

The Honza-est. Full of Honzosity. Muy, MUY, Honza.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

The Honza-est. Full of Honzosity. Muy, MUY, Honza.

Lots of people are saying this is the Honzaist post. Smart people.

 

[Old Noob]

"Snakes. Why did it have to be snakes?" - Indiana Jones, 1936

 

[Michael Dorosh]

My whole life I have had an interest in systems.

Phil Caputo references "systems" in his autobiography A Rumor of War, though the reference wasn't kind - IIRC it was to how the USMC was system-driven, which he felt infringed on the ability of junior leaders to make meaningful decisions.

As an example, he mentions how badly his platoon suffered from dysentery on getting to Vietnam. Not sure what the USMC-approved solution was, but ISTR Caputo got his men to eat more rice, off the local economy, and the problem with diarrhea stopped.

My feeling is that if you understand the system by which something works then you have understood the most important part of the subject.

A set of rules is by definition a system: "a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done."

I would agree that knowing the rules is an important part of playing ASL. But once you understand the rules, that doesn't mean you have the ability to apply them. I'd think the latter is equally important.

The ASL system is very well thought out and efficient.

It has the advantage of a long gestation - ASL isn't an original idea, it was originally - as you know - a rewrite of the four core rulebooks that preceded it. I'd agree it is well thought out, I disagree about how efficient it is. Not to slag the ASLRB which is an impressive achievement, but can there really be any disagreement about the number of poorly written paragraphs or circular rules references? The sheer amount of errata and clarifications since 1985 to the first four chapters suggest there are always ways to find new efficiencies.

But of course there can be no disagreement either that there is not much else quite like it out there.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

I would agree that knowing the rules is an important part of playing ASL. But once you understand the rules, that doesn't mean you have the ability to apply them. I'd think the latter is equally important.

You may know the Building Code, but that does not mean a functioning and aesthetic building and design.

Ric
AIA, ACHA, LEED-AP

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I can think of a few systematic-whatever's that I can't take a liking to ...

 

[Honza]

Yes sorry about the "Honza Type" post. It has been such a long time since the last one though.

The dictionary definition of a system is - a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network; a complex whole.

 

[Honza]

I can think of a few systematic-whatever's that I can't take a liking to ...

Bureaucracy?

 

[Honza]

A set of rules is by definition a system: "a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done."

The rules dictate how the parts of the system interrelate and function. The rules drive the system. But whether the rules actually are the system I am not sure.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Bureaucracy?

Close. Exploitation.

 

[Justiciar]

Phil Caputo references "systems" in his autobiography A Rumor of War, though the reference wasn't kind - IIRC it was to how the USMC was system-driven, which he felt infringed on the ability of junior leaders to make meaningful decisions.

That was the old Corps...even the so called New Breed Corps. Further emphasis should be placed on your use of "was."

The USMC since Cmdt. Gray became a very different beast, with FMFM-1 Warfighting and the concept of Operational Maneuver from the Sea (OMFTS), which melded with ideas from Col. Boyd (USAF) and his concept of the OODA loop. Decision making was pushed downwards...and became a hallmark of the "strategic corporal" (who had to think 2 up, as did any leader regardless of level). A way of thinking which was in evidence in Gulf I+...sadly this way of war is now being overtaken by a new USMC concepts of operations which are not nearly as dynamic nor ask as much from leaders the likes of LTs like Caputo...

 

[Michael Dorosh]

That was the an Corps...even the so called New Breed Corps. Further emphasis should be placed on your use of "was."

Indeed, and the quote should be taken in context - for those that don't know, Caputo was in the USMC in IIRC 1965, or when the first Marines landed in the RVN. The Strategic Corporal got traction up here in Canada as well, as did another Marine concept (?), the Three Block War. Like the Marines though, haven't seen mention of the Strategic Corporal in a while.

 

[Justiciar]

Indeed, and the quote should be taken in context - for those that don't know, Caputo was in the USMC in IIRC 1965, or when the first Marines landed in the RVN. The Strategic Corporal got traction up here in Canada as well, as did another Marine concept (?), the Three Block War. Like the Marines though, haven't seen mention of the Strategic Corporal in a while.

Three Block War is/was Zunni concept was it??...part and parcel of the strategic corporal...the back story is that the corporal as a fire team leader would make decisions that would have outcomes seen on "ZNN" the next new cycle and drive the train, not the decisions made by the BLT CO.

The strategic corporal and OODA type thinking is giving way (has given way?) in the USMC, to something else (and I don't have a finger to the pulse as I used to so as to define it) but it requires much less of junior leadership at all levels...and this is driven in large part by thinking that the next war is going to be vs. the PLA amid the PTO and sea lanes...and the USMC's role will be very, very different...almost a throw back to its defense battalions...it will be like Wake Island with anti-ship missiles, AAA, and an air strip for some F-35s.

Anyways we digress from Honza's Zen like post of .... "be the system that is ASL....and all the potential it holds"...hmmummm (use the Chevy Chase voice).

 

[Yuri0352]

Anyways we digress from Honza's Zen like post of .... "be the system that is ASL....and all the potential it holds"...hmmummm (use the Chevy Chase voice).

I'm enjoying this digression.

 

[TopT]

I'm enjoying this digression.

Yes, it was interesting.

Justiciar is correct especially if you have read the newest Commandant's message. Operational Maneuver from the Sea (OMFTS) is going away as China's vast supply of Anti-ship missiles makes it untenable. They (MC) are working on a new type battleground that brings brawn/ might (typical MC trait) and combine that with advanced tech individuals. The latter individual in addition to a squad leader will have the ability to call on myriad types of support with hand held technologies (kindle type).
The techie type individual is being recruited on a larger scale and the MC just announced a new MOS (0521) that is totally geared towards PsyOps. Think the individual that is tech savvy, can monitor several levels of incoming information, and can produce PsyOps type messages in foreign terrain. It falls in with the counter intel group of MOS's.
As far as the Pacific, we are moving towards smaller bases but spreading out so that the Chinese cannot neutralize all of them in a first strike type scenario. They are even rethinking the Gerald Ford type carriers although they are designed to take multiple anti-shipping missiles and still operate as they have redundant capacities throughout.

 

[RobZagnut]

Two other tactical gaming systems that I am enjoying immensely and also playing with ASLers:

Gloomhaven - The #1 game on boardgamegeek. It uses a card based movement and combat system for those who get annoyed with rolling dice. Its a 1-4 coop game and the AI to handle the monster movement and combat is brilliant.

Too Many Bones - Uses dice (16 per character) to build your character up through out the game. The choices how to build are extremely interesting and rewarding. The combat system is fast and tight. This is also a coop game for 1-4 players.

Both games come with lots of scenarios, characters and expansions to keep replayabilty high. Gloomhaven offers 80 scenarios right out of the box.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The sheer amount of errata and clarifications since 1985 to the first four chapters suggest there are always ways to find new efficiencies.

To continue this thought, the "redesign" of the Finns and French in their modules kind of gives one pause to consider whether or not the system was "well thought out." There are ongoing concerns in the community about how "well thought out" the partisans and Italians are also. Though given the scale of the system and the number of distinct nationalities the publishers have chosen to take on, it is probably easier to be impressed by just how much hasn't changed in some of the other re-releases such as Yanks2 or Rising Sun.

 

[TopT]

Two other tactical gaming systems that I am enjoying immensely and also playing with ASLers:

Gloomhaven - The #1 game on boardgamegeek. It uses a card based movement and combat system for those who get annoyed with rolling dice. Its a 1-4 coop game and the AI to handle the monster movement and combat is brilliant.

Too Many Bones - Uses dice (16 per character) to build your character up through out the game. The choices how to build are extremely interesting and rewarding. The combat system is fast and tight. This is also a coop game for 1-4 players.

Both games come with lots of scenarios, characters and expansions to keep replayabilty high. Gloomhaven offers 80 scenarios right out of the box.

I always like your reviews of Euro games. I am trying to get my 50/ 60 year old group to try some of these. I believe you talked about Pandemic and I went out and bought that. Great game! Gloomhaven might be another.