Difference between the "a" and the "b" board sides

jrv

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A bit of trivia I learned at Winter Offensive 2020. Someone asked about the difference between the "a" and "b" sides of the tall, half-wide boards (01a/01b - 13a/13b). Chas Argent happened to be there to explain. Besides the obvious difference in hex row labeling (A-Q vs Q-GG), the difference in terrain is the pattern of half woods on the "1" and "20" board edges changes to match the pattern on full-length boards.

JR
 

Pitman

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That was the whole point of the B sides (which I wish had never been done).
 

footsteps

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I think it would have been easier, production/cost wise, to have only two Woods half-hexes (H0/10 and J0/10) on either side of each road-hex on the Fort/AP boards. The half-hexes of the abutting geo-board would determine whether D/F or L/N were considered Woods. You only have to print one sided. And a different way to name/number the boards.
 

jrv

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I think it would have been easier, production/cost wise, to have only two Woods half-hexes (H0/10 and J0/10) on either side of each road-hex on the Fort/AP boards. The half-hexes of the abutting geo-board would determine whether D/F or L/N were considered Woods. You only have to print one sided. And a different way to name/number the boards.
What sort of difference in cost would you expect? I'd guess it would be around 50¢, and that MMP would probably pocket the difference instead of lowering the price. And why would a different way of numbering the boards be good?

JR
 

Pitman

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Why do you wish that?

JR
1) it adds unnecessary cost

2) it makes protecting boards more difficult because there is no non-map side

3) it doubles the work involved for people who (like me) use laminated copies of boards or (like many others) use enlarged versions of the boards.

ASL lived for a jillion years with half-woods hexes (and continues to do so), so this is all just unnecessary work and expense.
 

jrv

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1) it adds unnecessary cost

2) it makes protecting boards more difficult because there is no non-map side

3) it doubles the work involved for people who (like me) use laminated copies of boards or (like many others) use enlarged versions of the boards.

ASL lived for a jillion years with half-woods hexes (and continues to do so), so this is all just unnecessary work and expense.
  1. I will guess that the cost difference is not significant, but I don't know.
  2. I can understand this for others. Personally I store the SK-style boards in page protectors, so it is of little import to me.
  3. True.
I think it is a nice touch. Half-woods hexes leave open LOSes down the board edge, which is not so desirable to me.

JR
 

footsteps

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Added costs amount to more than just printing 'another side'.

Board layout: It isn't just about moving half-hex Woods, though that is extra work and creates an extra file for the printer to deal with. The hex addresses need to be re-laid. The general standard is that addresses on dark backgrounds (i.e. Woods; Level 4) are rendered in white. This is a manual process that can't be automated, and must be done for both A-Q and Q-GG layouts.

Printing/cutting: the need for precision placement is even more critical for boards than for counters. With double-sided boards, there is the chance of misalignment between the two sides. Thus, an acceptable cut for the 'a' side may result in an unacceptable cut on the 'b' side - a higher failure rate of final product, and a higher per-unit cost attached to each saleable board. (i.e. less profit)
 

jrv

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Added costs amount to more than just printing 'another side'.

Board layout: It isn't just about moving half-hex Woods, though that is extra work and creates an extra file for the printer to deal with. The hex addresses need to be re-laid. The general standard is that addresses on dark backgrounds (i.e. Woods; Level 4) are rendered in white. This is a manual process that can't be automated, and must be done for both A-Q and Q-GG layouts.

Printing/cutting: the need for precision placement is even more critical for boards than for counters. With double-sided boards, there is the chance of misalignment between the two sides. Thus, an acceptable cut for the 'a' side may result in an unacceptable cut on the 'b' side - a higher failure rate of final product, and a higher per-unit cost attached to each saleable board. (i.e. less profit)
If it takes you more than an hour's work to change the map title from "a" to "b", move the woods, make the different hex addresses and convert the color of those that need to be changed (in the four hexes that change), we're taking you off graphics and putting you on collating.

Printing/cutting: that is the printer's problem. Two-sided printing with both sides aligned correctly should be pretty much a gimmie for any reasonable printer. They aren't going to charge you much more. As I said, I would expect it adds 50¢ per unit, if that much. I would guess less, but I will accept 50¢. The POD guys printing counters (https://www.superiorpod.com/product/58counterround) charge an extra quarter per sheet for two-sided for counters when ordering ten or more.

You had experience with a printer. If you had printed one-sided counters would the cost have been substantially cheaper?

JR
 
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footsteps

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You had experience with a printer. If you had printed one-sided counters would the cost have been substantially cheaper?

JR
Yes. Half the set-up costs (single biggest expense with off-set printing), because half the files to be set up. The POD folks are probably using digital printing, which is more cost effective for smaller batches than off-set because of negligible one-time costs. Had I used digital printing for my counter sets, my costs would have been 40+% higher.

When you look at both sides of the Fort boards you'll see that they both have the nice satin finish to the surface. When you look at both sides of the geo-boards you'll see that the back side is a 'rough' unfinished surface. The satin finish is a layer added after printing. I was recently quoted on printing geo-boards. Just printing, leaving a glossy, highly reflective surface, is almost half the cost of printing with a satin finish similar to what we are used to in ASL.
 

BattleSchool

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A bit of trivia I learned at Winter Offensive 2020. Someone asked about the difference between the "a" and "b" sides of the tall, half-wide boards (01a/01b - 13a/13b). Chas Argent happened to be there to explain. Besides the obvious difference in hex row labeling (A-Q vs Q-GG), the difference in terrain is the pattern of half woods on the "1" and "20" board edges changes to match the pattern on full-length boards.

JR
Coincidentally, this same question was raised at our local game day yesterday. I knew the reason for the two sides. It's easier to visualize when you lay a standard board lengthwise against a "Fort" board.

I am surprised to learn just how costly it is to finish each side in a satin finish. I had no idea that this finish was a separate layer.

Despite the added costs, I like the "fat" boards, and applaud MMP's willingness to print them.
 

footsteps

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I am surprised to learn just how costly it is to finish each side in a satin finish. I had no idea that this finish was a separate layer.

Despite the added costs, I like the "fat" boards, and applaud MMP's willingness to print them.
I was just as surprised when my printer explained the difference between the sample he printed for me and MMP board I showed him.

I like the fat boards, too, for designing. It's a much easier canvas size for creating ideas. I've got a lot of them.
 

daveramsey

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It demonstrates MMP's commitment to quality in so much as can be reasonably planned for in the production of maps. Few would have complained had they only been compatible on one side of the board and to be frank, it's the perfect use for the other side of a board without including another mapsheet which would have been wasteful.

I love it when I see "clever" stuff I would never have thought of. Although that does happen quite a lot :)
 

Tuomo

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I like the fat boards, too, for designing. It's a much easier canvas size for creating ideas. I've got a lot of them.
I do too, and yet I lament the passing of one of my favorite board configurations: 3 half-boards (A1-Q10) stacked on top of each other. IMO it's a great size for an ASL scenario, but we don't seem to see it much anymore.
 

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I do too, and yet I lament the passing of one of my favorite board configurations: 3 half-boards (A1-Q10) stacked on top of each other. IMO it's a great size for an ASL scenario, but we don't seem to see it much anymore.
I tried it once, but it was so difficult to get to the squads on the bottom two boards without knocking off the pieces on the top board. Also, I never could figure out if you could fire up through the board above to the units on top of it.
 

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Like Star Trek's 3-D chess, it always looked difficult to not accidentally knock pieces off.
 

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I tried it once, but it was so difficult to get to the squads on the bottom two boards without knocking off the pieces on the top board. Also, I never could figure out if you could fire up through the board above to the units on top of it.
Kind-a like putting on a new pair of socks each day. By the end of the week you can hardly get your shoes on.
 
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