British 3-in. Mortar: do you use 76mm or 81mm?

[DerBlitzer]

A sidebar on page 36 of Journal 7 mentions the British 3-in mortar as having an incorrect mm associated with it in ASL---the author says it should be 81mm, not 76mm. It also talks about MMP issuing erraticized counters. Is this generally accepted? What do others play this mortar as? It can be a fairly significant difference, being two different columns on the IFT.

VASL still depicts it as a 76mm. Should it be changed there?

Opinions....

 

[asler]

A sidebar on page 36 of Journal 7 mentions the British 3-in mortar as having an incorrect mm associated with it in ASL---the author says it should be 81mm, not 76mm. It also talks about MMP issuing erraticized counters. Is this generally accepted? What do others play this mortar as? It can be a fairly significant difference, being two different columns on the IFT.

VASL still depicts it as a 76mm. Should it be changed there?

Opinions....

As far as I know MMP has not errata'd the counter. Regardless, I would use what ever mortar is listed on the OoB of the scenario card regardless of the correct caliber of the actual mortar. I would think that if MMP ever does issue 81mm british mortars - then it would be for the scenario designers from that point on to use the 81mm instead of the 76mm - but I don't think people would then go back to previous scenarios and switch the mortars.

Chris

 

[Will Fleming]

Brits could use a little help.

British Attacking 62W 71L 0T 46.62%
British Defending 43W 39L 0T 52.44%
Overall 105W 110L 0T 48.84%

 

[DerBlitzer]

As far as I know MMP has not errata'd the counter. Regardless, I would use what ever mortar is listed on the OoB of the scenario card regardless of the correct caliber of the actual mortar. I would think that if MMP ever does issue 81mm british mortars - then it would be for the scenario designers from that point on to use the 81mm instead of the 76mm - but I don't think people would then go back to previous scenarios and switch the mortars.

Chris

The "we" used in the sidebar sort of makes the suggestion to use 81mm sound more official, though. And this last sentence: "We hope to issue erraticized counters at the next opportunity."

 

[SamB]

The "we" used in the sidebar sort of makes the suggestion to use 81mm sound more official, though. And this last sentence: "We hope to issue erraticized counters at the next opportunity."

Still, I would use whatever motar is on the scenario card. To do otherwise would probably affect play balance.

 

[jwb3]

Still, I would use whatever motar is on the scenario card. To do otherwise would probably affect play balance.

So, Blitzer, what you do is check ROAR before playing the scenario. If the Brits need a bit of a boost, you treat it as an 81mm. Otherwise it's a 76mm.
:devious:

John

 

[Robin Reeve]

Note that not only the Gun counter should have to be changed, but the Carrier toting the same mortar too (I hope MMP won't miss that one, if they decide for erraticized counters).

 

[soggycrow]

If you do the math, 3 inches is just a hair over 76mm.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

If you do the math, 3 inches is just a hair over 76mm.

If you measure the actual bore of the 3-inch mortar - as the guys who wrote the article in the Journal did - you will find it is 81mm.

All irrelevant anyway since the factor under consideration is blast effect of the round, not the size. No idea why they would make a major change based on a physical dimension rather than an actual understanding of the blast effects.

 

[JD Sullivan]

If you measure the actual bore of the 3-inch mortar - as the guys who wrote the article in the Journal did - you will find it is 81mm.

All irrelevant anyway since the factor under consideration is blast effect of the round, not the size. No idea why they would make a major change based on a physical dimension rather than an actual understanding of the blast effects.

I also think that Charles Markuss [spelling] went over the inferiority of British HE shells to their Gerrman & American counterparts due to the poor quality of steel they were producing at the time.

IIRC for the same caliber the blast effect was much less due to the need for thicker shell walls and reduced HE filling capacity.

 

[Tooz]

So, what is "official?" How do I convince (prove this rule switch) my opponent during play? What source do I quote?

 

[jrv]

I play as printed. In Forgotten War, 81mm MTR; in everything else typically 76mm.

JR

 

[Yuri0352]

As far as I know MMP has not errata'd the counter. Regardless, I would use what ever mortar is listed on the OoB of the scenario card regardless of the correct caliber of the actual mortar. I would think that if MMP ever does issue 81mm british mortars - then it would be for the scenario designers from that point on to use the 81mm instead of the 76mm - but I don't think people would then go back to previous scenarios and switch the mortars.

Chris

Actually, MMP has addressed and corrected the issue regarding the previous incorrect caliber size of the British OML 3 inch mortar. Refer to the British/Commonwealth ordnance note #16 on page H206 of the Chapter H notes as included with the Forgotten War module. The second paragraph of this note indicates that the 81mm '3 inch' counters "can be used in WW2 scenarios set after August 1942". The same note also indicates that the 81mm '3 inch' counters can be used in earlier WW2 scenarios after making adjustments to range and IR availability per British Ordnance note 2.

If MMP's rules are to be considered official, then the correct procedure would be to utilize the 81mm 3 inch mortar counters in any scenario regardless of whether the battle occurs during WW2 or the Korean conflict.

I am curious as to whether or not the correct 81mm 3 inch mortar counters will be included in the future reprint of FKaC.

 

[bendizoid]

Brits could use a little help.

British Attacking 62W 71L 0T 46.62%
British Defending 43W 39L 0T 52.44%
Overall 105W 110L 0T 48.84%

So, what is "official?" How do I convince (prove this rule switch) my opponent during play? What source do I quote?

Let them have the British and they will be convinced.

 

[Yuri0352]

So, what is "official?" How do I convince (prove this rule switch) my opponent during play? What source do I quote?

British/Commonwealth Ordnance Note #16 on page H206 of the Chapter H pages which were included in the Forgotten War module.
See my post just upstream.

 

[Robin Reeve]

If one doesn't have FW, she can use the 76 Mtr counters, but fire them as if 81.
I consider the FW counters as any erraticized counters.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I see the FW counters as something scenario designers can use from now on if they want to.
E.g., SSR 3 from AP143:
3. Use the British Commonwealth Forces Korea Ordnance Note 16 counter for the 3-in. MTR.


For older scenarios, it would be up to the players if they want to use the 81mm counter instead of the 76mm counter.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

When FKaC v1 or v2 came out there was some discussion about replacing the WoA 76 MTR counters with 81 MTR. The perceived opinion by MMP was that might unbalance old scenarios, so treating them as 81 rather than 76 was regarded as optional with the agreement of both players.

 

[Yuri0352]

The classic ASL conundrum.... Balance/Playability vs. Historical Accuracy.