L3/35

Juan SantaX

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Hi:

it’s about this italian tin can, the L3...

This small AFV has a mention on the back of the counter like this :

Stun=recall & CE/FP NA

it seems to me that they are different effects: stun means recall as on 1mt afv, and you cannot fire with the mg if you are CE.

OR it means that if you are recalled, you cannot, after the recall, use the mg if you become CE?

I think the first one is the good one, but it’s unclear to me....

thanks in advance
 

Robin Reeve

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Italian multi-applicable vehicle note E:
E If stunned, this AFV may not regain CE status, may not fire any weapon, and is Recalled as per D5.341; these are signified by "Stun=Recall & CE/FP NA" on the counter.
 

Juan SantaX

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Thanks Robin!

But I saw that, and the L3 with a 20mm ATR and the other L3 with AAmg firing limitations and the 1mt rules, and I know that the L3 had a 2 man crew, Driver and gunner/commander...

A pzkpfw I cannot shoot while CE, and this thing, quite similar to a pzkpfw I, but without turret, can... I looked at the charts and it isn't marked as 1mt....

Something smells rotten to me... ??
 

Juan SantaX

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Ps: and there are 4 of them in the Italian Behemoth scenario... Can they shoot CE and hit the British AC without BU penalties?
 
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Robin Reeve

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Aren't they NT vehicles - i.e. not 1MT?
This would mean that they can normally fire while being CE - including the AA MG.
But if Stun, they cannot anymore and are recalled.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Aren't they NT vehicles - i.e. not 1MT?
This would mean that they can normally fire while being CE - including the AA MG.
But if Stun, they cannot anymore and are recalled.
Yes, they are NT.

What might seem a little strange is that two of the L3 versions can fire (some weapons) while CE and two can't. But I have no idea what the differences between these are and/or if the layout of the vehicles are different, so perhaps it isn't strange after all.
 

Juan SantaX

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Italian multi-applicable vehicle note E:
I think the problem is with my english...

Note E seems to me that is making this NT AFV subject to 1mt penalties regarding stun results... But the second mention after the "&", is another side effect of the stun result or is another characteristic of this AFV?
 
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klasmalmstrom

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Note E seems to me that is making this NT AFV subject to 1mt penalties regarding stun results... But the secon mention after the "&", is another side effect of the stun result or is another characteristic of this AFV?
It's an effect of becoming Stunned. Per MAVN E.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Others have outlined what happens when a L3 is Stunned.

The L3aa may fire the BMG only when BU and and AAMG only when CE. In addition the AAMG may only be fired through the VCA (IVN 3).
The L3cc may fire the 20L only when BU (IMAVN J) and only through the VCA (B20L).

The problem is that the various L3 have no T/ST/RST/1MT/NT type. That means there is no official guide to what type the plain L3 and L3 Lf (IVN 2, 5) is. For that you have to use historical information and the limits placed on the aa and cc as a guide. Treat both as NT and only capable of firing BU, a combination of NT and 1MT.
 

Juan SantaX

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Thank to everybody

I think is as Paul says: a mix of a NT, and it is a NT by the rules, and 1mt, with a BMG as only weapon that cannot be used CE. BUT I think its unclear, so I will ask my opponent how we should play with L3s.

By the way, I think they will play with it at GRENADIER this year...
 

Robin Reeve

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Your question was initially about the L3/35.
Which can fire the BMG CE - i.e. no restriction as for the aa model.
Don't import the note of the aa model into the L3/35 notes.
 

Juan SantaX

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Your question was initially about the L3/35.
Which can fire the BMG CE - i.e. no restriction as for the aa model.
Don't import the note of the aa model into the L3/35 notes.
I'm not doing that. My problem is with the back of the counter and the “&“. By the rules I must agree with you: the CE/FP NA, is only for stunned L3s.

But I think that maybe, just maybe, there can be some kind of errata. Stun=recall (as on 1mt AFV, which this AFV isn't). And another characteristic is that CE FP NA (as on 1mt AFV, but this one is NT with a bmg; and a bmg cannot be on a turret), like the rest of the vehicles of the same family (those versions of the standar L3 that cannot shoot CE).
So when I play with them I will ask my opponent, and play as he says.

(By the way, you owe me a rematch, after the last TWO beatings you gave me... First one you beat me as a drum, and then you hit me left, right and middle... We will have to arrange a rematch... Maybe with those L3s... ?)
 

klasmalmstrom

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There is no errata for this vehicle - the MAVN is clear (IMO):
"If Stunned, this AFV may not regain CE status, may not fire any weapon, and is Recalled as per D5.341; these are signified by “Stun=Recall & CE/FP NA” on the counter."

There are several vehicles with this on the back of the counter.
 

Juan SantaX

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There is no errata for this vehicle - the MAVN is clear (IMO):
"If Stunned, this AFV may not regain CE status, may not fire any weapon, and is Recalled as per D5.341; these are signified by “Stun=Recall & CE/FP NA” on the counter."

There are several vehicles with this on the back of the counter.
You dont have to convince me, I know you are right by the rules (and I know you are a rules guru). And we should always play by the rules.

But I think there can be some kind of mistake. The L3aa gave me that "smell". Maybe I'm wrong (almost for sure) but if I see (just a hypothesis) an early model of T34 without the RST (and I know the layout of the turret and how the rules handle that on early T34) I can think that something is wrong...

The difference is really small, anyway, only in TH, and maybe in OVR... And maybe the L3 standard version had some type of device to shoot the mg while CE, or the guns where so near the top of the hull, that the gunner could shoot it with the head outside the vehicle, and that didn't happen on other versions.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Unless you are firing the L3 MG(s)/20L as ordnance there is no BU penalty (D5.2).

The L3 had the MGs a bit below the top of the hull. The gun sight was part of the mounting, so unless the commander-gunner was seated down in the vehicle no aimed fire was possible. I suppose the gunner could waggle the MG about with his dick when he had his head above the roof, but that would be a spray and pray job. The driver must have had some form of raisable seat (like many other AFV) and long enough levers as he could drive CE when in safe areas.


So when does CE give an advantage?
Moving on a road.
Firing a L3 aa AAMG as ordnance.

When does BU disadvantage?
Firing the L3/35 MG, L3 aa BMG or L3 cc 20L as ordnance.

Regardless of advantage/disadvantage the L3 aa AAMG may only be fired whilst CE, all others weapons may only be fired when BU. L3 MG(s) and 20L ATR as small arms and the FT suffer no BU penalty, so for most firing being BU is not a real problem.
 
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Robin Reeve

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You dont have to convince me, I know you are right by the rules (and I know you are a rules guru). And we should always play by the rules.

But I think there can be some kind of mistake. The L3aa gave me that "smell".
Ok.
This is the rules folder and it is about following the rules.
Whatever you feel is about the designer's choices and that is mostly subjective.
Why should the designer not be consistent between his design of the L3/35 and the aa version?
If he made a difference, while not making one would be very easy, there must be a reason.
And I would not elaborate about the back of the counter annotation: it is a summary - clearly elucidated in chapter H notes - that one shouldn't overthink.
 

von Marwitz

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By the way, I think they will play with it at GRENADIER this year...
That is correct. FT230 Italian Behemoth is on the scenario list for Grenadier 2019.

The vehicle as depcited on the photo of the scenario card and the counter is NT.

von Marwitz
 

Juan SantaX

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Ok.
This is the rules folder and it is about following the rules.
Whatever you feel is about the designer's choices and that is mostly subjective.
Why should the designer not be consistent between his design of the L3/35 and the aa version?
If he made a difference, while not making one would be very easy, there must be a reason.
And I would not elaborate about the back of the counter annotation: it is a summary - clearly elucidated in chapter H notes - that one shouldn't overthink.
I can’t disagree with you. It’s my subjective point of view. I know I have to apply the rules as written.

But even then, really, I’m not sure if I should quote a “sic” after note E.

Best
 
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