Concealment & CC

Simon62

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
478
Reaction score
65
Country
llUnited Kingdom
hi all,

I am not clear on the loss of concealment rules in relation to CC.

We have the following situation:

An unconcealed British unit is in a stone building two hexes from a stack of German units currently out of site of the British units as they are at a lower level, the hex between the two stacks is an open ground hex and the same level as the stone building.

The German player lays smoke in prep fire from a tank into the open ground hex and in the movement phase the German units assault move into the hex (open ground - 1, plus one for smoke - 2, doubled for uphill -4, movement allowance 6 as leader present so assault movement is allowed) bringing them adjacent to the German units in the building. Due to rule A10.531 (open ground) our understanding is that the German unit does not loose concealment for this assault move due to the smoke.

The British defensive fire at the German unit in the open ground hex in the smoke but fail to achieve a result on the IFT so again the German unit keeps its concealment.

In the advance phase the German units advance into the stone building with the British unit and enter in CC - my questions here are:

  1. Are we correct in our belief that the German unit does not loos concealment when it assault moves into the open ground hex covered with smoke?
  2. does the advance into the stone building from the smoke filled hex strip concealment - again as per rule A10.531 & A12.14 we don't think it does but not sure?
  3. Rule A12.14 also states that concealment is lost if a unit attacks in CC, the CC table indicates a 1/2x modifier to the attacker if defender concealed in CC - what is the position re concealment loss in the following CC situations:
3A) No ambush, simultaneous CC - does the German unit count as concealed until after the CC or does he loose concealment in declaring the attack, as the combat is simultaneous at the point of resolution the German unit has not yet physically attacked so does the German get the benefit of the concealment or not?
3B) German unit ambushes the British unit and attacks first as sequential CC, loses concealment after the attack and the British player if still in GO attacks back with no concealment modifier
3C) British unit ambushes German unit and attacks first as sequential CC - British unit keeps concealment as it has not yet attacked and only looses it the British score a result in CC or it then attacks if it survives the ambush attack.

Apologies for the questions but keep reading the rules and can't clarify the position in our eyes especially to 3A above. Any insight would be appreciated
 

EagleIV

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
1,641
Reaction score
843
Location
California
Country
llUnited States
1 correct.
2. They keep concealment.
3A Since the Germans are concealed they announce that the will (or will not attack) before any attacks are announced, not all units have to do the same thing. Any units that announce that they will attack lose concealment at this time (before attacks are announced). Any units that won't make any CC attacks remain concealed at this time (and if they survive will be concealed at the end of the CCPh.)
3B This is poorly worded. The Germans keep concealment if all the British units are killed in CC. If a British unit survives the German's attack(s) all the Germans units lose concealment before any British attacks are announced.
3C I thought the British unit was unconcealed. The Germans lose concealed as soon as they are ambushed, before any attacks by either side are announced.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Are we correct in our belief that the German unit does not loos concealment when it assault moves into the open ground hex covered with smoke?
Correct. Any hindrance DRM (other than those that don't cancel FFMO, e.g. LV hindrances [E3.1]) will prevent concealment loss. Even though the terrain is Open Ground per B1.0, FFMO does not apply [index]. It is not Open Ground in the A10.531 sense and so does not cause loss of concealment by A12.14. Note that SMOKE in the hex with the defending units would also prevent concealment loss.

The phrase "Open Ground" is used in two different ways in the ASLRB, and although the two ways are related you have to be aware which way is meant in the particular rule you are reading. The first sense is the physical terrain type per B1.0, which determines things like movement costs. Second is in the sense of FFMO applying per A10.531, which applies to things concealment loss and interdiction.

does the advance into the stone building from the smoke filled hex strip concealment - again as per rule A10.531 & A12.14 we don't think it does but not sure?
no, even though there might be a strip of open ground around the building.

Rule A12.14 also states that concealment is lost if a unit attacks in CC, the CC table indicates a 1/2x modifier to the attacker if defender concealed in CC - what is the position re concealment loss in the following CC situations:

3A) No ambush, simultaneous CC - does the German unit count as concealed until after the CC or does he loose concealment in declaring the attack, as the combat is simultaneous at the point of resolution the German unit has not yet physically attacked so does the German get the benefit of the concealment or not?
Although CC is "simultaneous", the game mechanics are anything but. Both sides reveal their unit's strength factors so that CC attacks can be calculated [ASOP 8.11B]. The ATTACKER next declares all his intended attacks, then the DEFENDER. Any unit that participates in an attack (as an attacker) loses concealment. The ATTACKER now rolls all his announced attacks, then the DEFENDER.

3B) German unit ambushes the British unit and attacks first as sequential CC, loses concealment after the attack and the British player if still in GO attacks back with no concealment modifier
A unit with ambush loses concealment only if it does not eliminate/capture all the units it attacked [A11.4]. If there were two units in the location but it attacked (and eliminated) only one, it would maintain concealment.

3C) British unit ambushes German unit and attacks first as sequential CC - British unit keeps concealment as it has not yet attacked and only looses it the German score a result in CC or it then attacks if it survives the ambush attack.
I think you mean "German" where I changed the word in bold.

This is assuming the British have concealment. In your example above they did not. Because the British have ambush, they make the first attack. The German loses concealment because it is on the ambushed side. If the British announce an attack and eliminate/capture all the units they attacked, they maintain concealment. If they do not attack, they maintain concealment.

The surviving Germans next get an attack. If the Germans get a CR, the attacked British units loses concealment [A11.19]. If the Germans eliminate the British, the British are eliminated and no amount of concealment retention is going to help that. If the Germans do not affect the British, the British retain any concealment they had.

If there are unconcealed units from both sides, then a Melee develops, but that does not cause any additional concealment loss.

JR
 
Last edited:
Top