Area Acquisition

[Simon62]

Hi all,

We have the following situation:

A concealed stack of units are in a stream (in the depression not in crest status). The hex is being fired on by a 50mm mortar as Rule C6.521 indicates that a hex can be targeted even if there are no known units in the hex, in order to strip concealment prior to enemy men moving towards the stream hex. No other unit on the board has a line of site into the stream hex but the units in the stream hex are not HIP so are on-board under a '?'.

Does the mortar get Area Acquisition on the unit to aid in it's to hit attempts - elsewhere in the rules I have found references saying that only units in Line of site can be Acquired and a rule that says that hidden/unkown units will be hit automatically if the hardest to hit unit in the hex is hit (C3.33), however, in this case there are no other units in the hex.

I also see rules that indicate that you only gain acquisition against units in you line of site. So what happens here and what happens if a hit is achieved which strips the concealment from the unit but it is still out of the line of sight in the instance does the next shot ignore the concealed target to hit case even though the unit is still unknown.

Finally, if the Acquisition is not applied to the to hit against the units in the stream does it accumulate against the Crest location of the stream hex which is in the firers LOS and if the unit move from in the depression to crest status it would then be subject to the Acquisition previously gained at the crest level.

Any help would be appreciated I have read the rules numerous times and looked on forums but can't find anything to clarify the situation.

My personal view is that the Acquisition applies only to the crest status location and does not aid the to hit on the unit concealed in the stream. if a hit is achieved which cause a result to strip the unit of concealment, then subsequent shots would not count the concealment case and would not count the Acquisition. At the next opportunity the unit would re-grow it's concealment with a dr <= 5 as it is not in concealment terrain but is out of LOS of all enemy units.

 

[jrv]

You can only hit a unit that is out-of-LOS with a mortar if you hit the hardest-to-hit-non-HIP unit that is in LOS. If there are no non-HIP units in LOS, you can't hit the units out-of-LOS. In your case you can't hit the units IN the stream until someone moves up into crest status (or you gain LOS INTO the stream, of course).

Acquisition would be gained because it is area target type, but it would only be used to hit a unit in LOS. If it hit a non-HIP unit in LOS, it would hit the units out-of-LOS.

Technically the mortar could hit the units IN a depression without there being a unit in LOS, i.e. in crest. But ASL reveals information that the mortar crew would not know by putting the concealed stack on board where the enemy player can see it. As a compromise the rules allow units IN a depression to be hit, but only if the mortar crew had some legitimate reason to be firing in that area. Completely unjustified firing (from the mortar crew's perspective) has no effect. It's a game thing.

JR

 

[Simon62]

Thanks for the insight.

Am I correct in thinking that the acquisition would be accumulated at the crest level as this is in line of sight of the firer and that if the unit moved from the stream to crest it would apply to future shots?

The rues do allow firing at empty hexes eg a building or woods that could contain an HIP unit which would have to be revealed if hit and a PTC or more achieved or a concealed unit , however, the unit would be in LOS when placed on board or in the case of concealment already on board, in my instance even with a hit the unit is still out of LOS of all units including the firer and I think that it is fair can't be hit.

 

[Simon62]

One more thought - if another enemy unit moved to get a LOS to the unit in the stream could the mortar then target the unit even though the mortar/spotter could still not see the unit and potentially could not see the friendly unit that now has a LOS to the unit in the stream?

 

[jrv]

One more thought - if another enemy unit moved to get a LOS to the unit in the stream could the mortar then target the unit even though the mortar/spotter could still not see the unit and potentially could not see the friendly unit that now has a LOS to the unit in the stream?

You have me a bit turned around on the enemy/friendly status. I think you are suggesting that another (non-spotter) unit on the same side as the mortar would gain LOS INTO the stream. That would still not be enough to allow fire to affect units out-of-LOS except by hitting one in LOS.

JR

 

[jrv]

Am I correct in thinking that the acquisition would be accumulated at the crest level as this is in line of sight of the firer and that if the unit moved from the stream to crest it would apply to future shots?

Area acquisition would accrue normally against the crest status location.

The rues do allow firing at empty hexes eg a building or woods that could contain an HIP unit which would have to be revealed if hit and a PTC or more achieved or a concealed unit , however, the unit would be in LOS when placed on board or in the case of concealment already on board, in my instance even with a hit the unit is still out of LOS of all units including the firer and I think that it is fair can't be hit.

The rules allow you to fire at hexes which you (as player) know cannot be anything but empty (perhaps there is no HIP in the scenario, or the hex is not concealment terrain) [C3.41]. One reason this might be done using area target type is to acquire a hex that you suspect might be one your opponent will use, e.g. a bridge over a water obstacle. Another is that you might want to affect the terrain itself, e.g. start a fire, rubble a building.

JR

 

[Simon62]

Ok yes you are correct in your assumption - bad wording on my part.

Thanks for all your patience and answers I will take the following away:

1. A unit out of LOS cannot be targeted or get Acquisition against it if there are no other units in the same hex that are in LOS of the firer (concealed or not).
2. If the hex is targeted the Acquisition will accumulate at the crest level as this is in line of sight but the unit out of line of sight will not be affected in any way.
3. If another unit from the firers sight gains LOS to the unit in the stream this does still not allow the mortar to fire at it although the unit with a LOS could fire at it.
4. if the unit moved from in the stream to crest it can be targeted and any Acquisition at the crest level previous obtained would immediately be applied.
5. If another friendly (to the unit in the stream) moves into crest status and the original unit stays in the stream depression then the Acquisition will apply to the unit in crest status and if a hit is achieved the unit in the depression will also be hit as the hardest to hit unit in the hex in LOS was hit.

Phew think I have it!!!!!

 

[jrv]

A unit out of LOS cannot be targeted or get Acquisition against it if there are no other units in the same hex that are in LOS of the firer (concealed or not).

This one is a bit wrong technically, but for cases you are not concerned about. Area acquisition is gained against the whole hex, and one can make an odd situation where acquisition is "gained" even though there is no LOS. Imagine a friendly unit at level 3 firing area target type at a level 3 building with enemy units at ground level only. There are two +3 Smoke counters at level zero between the firer and the target. While the Smoke is at +3 there is no level from the firer to the ground level, but the firer can fire at the level 3 building Location ("over" the Smoke) and gain acquisition. When the Smoke DRM is reduced or removed the area acquisition will apply to the enemy units on the ground level, even though they have never been fired at.

JR

 

[mgmasl]

There is a Q&A about affecting non-hidden units out of LOS

C3.33
If there are no non-hidden enemy targets in a hex within LOS of a mortar, can that mortar fire and hit enemy units that are out of
LOS in that hex? (e.g., units IN gully or lower level building Locations)
A. No.

 

[pwashington]

Had a similar situation in a recent game (sunken road instead of a stream/gully). Bore sighting wasn't allowed, but if it was, I assume boresighting a light mortar on such a hex would only apply to the crest portion (i.e., without the appropriate height advantage, you wouldn't be able to bore sight to the road level (-1) in the hex).

 

[jrv]

Had a similar situation in a recent game (sunken road instead of a stream/gully). Bore sighting wasn't allowed, but if it was, I assume boresighting a light mortar on such a hex would only apply to the crest portion (i.e., without the appropriate height advantage, you wouldn't be able to bore sight to the road level (-1) in the hex).

If you can't see INTO the depression, why would it matter if you could bore sight the non-crest part or not? The DRM would never matter.

Per C6.42 the bore sighted location must be in LOS and within sixteen hexes.

JR

 

[Justiciar]

If you can't see INTO the depression, why would it matter if you could bore sight the non-crest part or not? The DRM would never matter.

Per C6.42 the bore sighted location must be in LOS and within sixteen hexes.

JR

He beat me to it...

 

[jrv]

He beat me to it...

The rule book beat me to it.

JR