Which rule do you want to change?

Robin Reeve

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Heros drm cumulative… I will like a -1 limit hero drm even if added more tan one.. ie only one hero maximun affecting the roll.
Having two or more heroes is quite rare.
Having them together in a FG is even rarer.
Why spoil the fun by reducing their DRM?
Carpe diem.
Pluck the rose while it still blossoming.
Rejoice when you can, before the gloom of normality smothers your day.
 

mgmasl

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Having two or more heroes is quite rare.
Having them together in a FG is even rarer.
So.. where is the problem in limiting the drms?

Hero is something exotic with an scandalous drm.. when getting two or more together the effect is just near to a joke.. even leaders may not add drm.. in fact I will use it as a leader drm but not needing to stay with all units in the fire group. I like a lot Bounding Fire products because they usually use only -1 leaders.. a very clever decission generating lot of interesting scenarios
 

Eagle4ty

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Given that only one of three riflemen even fired their weapon in an engagement (or at least fired it effectively) and the fact the actions of a single highly motivated individual often times had an disproportionate impact on the outcome of an fight, it it not unreasonable (in my estimation) to give them the ability to substantially effect fire/CC/etc. as an ASL treatment of their impact.
 
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mgmasl

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Given that only one of three riflemen even fired their weapon in an engagement (or at least fired it effectively) and the fact the actions of a single higly motivated individual often times had an disproportionate impact on the outcome of an fight, it it not unreasonable (in my estimation) to give them the ability to substantially effect fire/CC/etc. as an ASL treatment of their impact.
Fully agree with a man giving some advantage in a firegroup.. so -1 is ok.. but I see -2 excesive, and added to a leadership is IMO also excesive.. Because their special ability they are good even with no drms. And a -1 drm for a full firegroup is a lot of drms..
 

Robin Reeve

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So.. where is the problem in limiting the drms?

Hero is something exotic with an scandalous drm..
What is wrong is that you consider the hero's DRM as scandalous.
And that you want to kill the fun when an exuberant situation occurs.
ASL is about laughing about some ridiculous outcomes.
That is why I find it infinitely superior to chess.
And even in chess you have an overpowered queen...
 

Gordon

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Nahverteidigungswaffe appear to be OP.
 

mgmasl

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What is wrong is that you consider the hero's DRM as scandalous.
And that you want to kill the fun when an exuberant situation occurs.
ASL is about laughing about some ridiculous outcomes.
That is why I find it infinitely superior to chess.
And even in chess you have an overpowered queen...
I like to lose a good match vs a player doing his best in a scenario by using everyone of its counters at maximum and not vs a player with crazy moves but rolling lot of snakes; and I like to win a scenario when understanding perfectly VC conditions and using my OB at the best to hit this objetive and no because I rolled a good chain of snakes and my opponent broke his best weapons early by rolling 12s very early. This is my thought about a funny game and I try the most of the house rules to be closer of this funny thing by reducing the dicey event to the minimum possible.. ROF, CH, Malfunctions and OBA rules as literally ruled in ASL without any adjusrment are my enemies to enjoyment.. 10-3 and a high proportion of heroes are also bad choices in any scenario.. Excesive DRs in pregame of any scenario or CG Date may also create some problems.. I think anyone may easily know what I dislike of the game. I know lot of players prefer the funny thing of the dicey events of the game and maybe winning vs good players because a dicey game but it’s not at all my idea of enjoyment when playing an interesting scenario or CG of this so beautiful and overcomplicated gem.
 

Juan SantaX

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I like to lose a good match vs a player doing his best in a scenario by using everyone of its counters at maximum and not vs a player with crazy moves but rolling lot of snakes; and I like to win a scenario when understanding perfectly VC conditions and using my OB at the best to hit this objetive and no because I rolled a good chain of snakes and my opponent broke his best weapons early by rolling 12s very early. This is my thought about a funny game and I try the most of the house rules to be closer of this funny thing by reducing the dicey event to the minimum possible.. ROF, CH, Malfunctions and OBA rules as literally ruled in ASL without any adjusrment are my enemies to enjoyment.. 10-3 and a high proportion of heroes are also bad choices in any scenario.. Excesive DRs in pregame of any scenario or CG Date may also create some problems.. I think anyone may easily know what I dislike of the game. I know lot of players prefer the funny thing of the dicey events of the game and maybe winning vs good players because a dicey game but it’s not at all my idea of enjoyment when playing an interesting scenario or CG of this so beautiful and overcomplicated gem.
Hi: I love roller-coaster games! One turn it looks as if everything is under control, then you roll TK two consecutive boxcars with your PaK40 against the side of a Sherman!!! And at least, when I lose my game, I always can blame the dice (even I know my opponent is better player than me)

10129

PD: SABOTAGE !!!!!
PD2: mgmasl.... You know you are better player than me... But I´m still smiling after I battle hardened + Hero on that encircled location ;)
 
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Paul M. Weir

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Nahverteidigungswaffe appear to be OP.
In physical terms, quite definitely Yes. From vaguely remembered comments from (a) designer(s), the intent was deliberate over-kill to discourage CCV by ASL players. Which has a point, but I suspect that over estimates even just the real life psychological effects, but I can live with that.
 

mgmasl

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Hi: I love roller-coaster games! One turn it looks as if everything is under control, then you roll TK two consecutive boxcars with your PaK40 against the side of a Sherman!!!
This story is always possible with all the adjustments I propose.. moral 8 units may fall broken at every opportunity and Italian conscript may pass the key morale check for victory.. it’s all about chains of good and bad events associated to one low or high roll doing two or more consecutive bad or good rolls excessively critical in game terms, specially in tournament size scenarios. Snakes is hit plus CH plus ROF plus special ammo plus HD hit.. and 12 is miss plus no CH plus no ROF plus gun malfunction plus no more special ammo.. IMHO it could be better by not linking all good and bad results to one only key DR.. Game still have a lot of missed TK rolls and CHs and Duds and no ROF or 6 RoFs in a row saving the day but no all those bad or good things altogether because rolling a single [or two consecutives] 2 or 12
 

Juan SantaX

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;)
This story is always possible with all the adjustments I propose.. moral 8 units may fall broken at every opportunity and Italian conscript may pass the key morale check for victory.. it’s all about chains of good and bad events associated to one low or high roll doing two or more consecutive bad or good rolls excessively critical in game terms, specially in tournament size scenarios. Snakes is hit plus CH plus ROF plus special ammo plus HD hit.. and 12 is miss plus no CH plus no ROF plus gun malfunction plus no more special ammo.. IMHO it could be better by not linking all good and bad results to one only key DR.. Game still have a lot of missed TK rolls and CHs and Duds and no ROF or 6 RoFs in a row saving the day but no all those bad or good things altogether because rolling a single [or two consecutives] 2 or 12
Next time we will use the rate third die

(Need time to do the deployment....)
 

Justiciar

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Given that only one of three riflemen even fired their weapon in an engagement (or at least fired it effectively) and the fact the actions of a single highly motivated individual often times had an disproportionate impact on the outcome of an fight, it it not unreasonable (in my estimation) to give them the ability to substantially effect fire/CC/etc. as an ASL treatment of their impact.
This is SLA Marshall... disproved....now...
 

Tater

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I would add the creation of rout paths across open ground (including non paved roads).
And places to skulk in, when behind a wall or a hedge, without changing Locations.
And of course the way brokies are able to use foxholes vs GO units is an internally inconsistent rules issue for ASL. It makes no rules sense (historical or not) that brokies (out of control units) are better able to utilize foxholes at a sprint while GO units seem unable to figure out the mysteries of foxhole movement.

The foxhole is still a death trap behind a wall/hedge...to exit you still have to spend that 1 MF in LOS.

The is no historical use for foxholes in ASL...the foxhole rules are broken.
 

Tater

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None of which I am disagreeing with. I just think too many players are asking foxholes to be something they're not-- and are not supposed to be. Don't blame the foxhole rule for that!!! (Especially when we already have a rule for shellholes.)
All I am asking for is that foxholes be usable, which is "something they're not".

And it isn't a +2 advantage for foxhole since any other +1 or better terrain is preferable. So the exchange is really higher risk for an additional +1 TEM. To call a foxhole a +2 advantage they would have to make a foxhole +3 to compare to a wall/hedge/woods/etc. And, BTW, you get none of that +2 as you exit/enter the foxhole. So, over-all you get no real TEM advantage while increasing the total risk to enemy fire.

So, I don't know what this mysterious "correct" way to use foxholes would be. Maybe you could give us a list of specific situations in which you believe the foxhole to be so invaluable that a player would be a fool not to use them. The plain, bottom line fact is that foxholes are practically useless except in some superficial ways...certainly not as a real fortified fighting position to be occupied.
 

Tater

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I'd rather 'fix' the rule on the rout end. Take your interdiction like a man!!?
And reduce the use of foxholes even further...not seeing that as a solution. OTOH, it would open up a couple of cells in my storage box when I toss all those foxhole counters.
 

Tater

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It's not. Name a battle in which the troops involved were expected to maneuver out of foxholes regularly, fighting as they went-- and dug them with that in mind. If there is one, I will design a scenario around it and SSR the new foxhole rules accordingly.
There's your problem...an ASL scenario is not a "battle". It is the hot 30-60 minute (real time) fire-fight that would have the handful of squads involved (on both sides) repositioning for any number of short term tactical reasons. Foxhole rules do not fit this idea.

I think original game designers were expecting more OBA in scenarios - not less (as has happened over the years).
I'd be surprised if they even considered how popular and tactically reasonable 'skulking' would become.
So the designers got OBA and skulking wrong...but they got foxholes perfect? Hmmm...yeah, sure...
 

Tater

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Unless OBA is falling you or you are being overrun by a tank...
OBA...sure, if my opponent can get it...then get it on me...half the scenario could be over by then...maybe longer if I reposition out of LOS of the observer...or skulk to rotate in '?' units. If you are planning your tactics out of fear of the opponents OBA then he doesn't even have to bring it in...it has already beat you.

I think I would rather be in woods than a foxhole vs possible overrun...most players won't even attempt overrun into woods. There are many other ways to use terrain to reduce the opponents desire to even attempt overrun. I have even used troops in overrun vulnerable positions to entice AFV into kill zones. In short, foxholes are a very unimaginative and limited tool vs overrun (AFV). Not to mention that the vast majority of scenarios where one side has AFV the opposing side usually has AFV/Gun(s)/LATW, so lets not pretend that foxholes are always (or even commonly) the sole salvation vs possible overrun.

So that's it...those are the sole reasons to take the added enemy fire risks for foxholes? I think I am in good company when I say, it ain't worth it.
 

Tater

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Tend to second that observation. I have toyed with a few changes for Foxhole/Trench effects during some homemade scenario designs (mostly PTO). Dependent on the situation or the side a couple of approaches are:
  1. Units in Foxholes [EX: Spider Holes or well camouflaged positions] in concealment terrain to lose concealment as Guns when firing. This approach seemed to work well as an SSR for engagements in especially rough terrain or with/against troops of vastly differing experience levels in jungle warfare.
  2. Allow units in Trenches (mostly) in concealment terrain to gain concealment as if the unit were behind Bocage. (This I think worked quite well even in German vs Russian engagements where a side had sufficient time & resources to dig in over an extended period of time [EX: Kursk, The Little Land, or even 1944 AGC at the outset of Bagration]).
I have yet to see such an SSR in a published scenario that I have played but I expect someone will come along sooner or later and publish something in a fairly similar in approach. One thing I have noticed with this approach is that attacker to defender ratios must be increased more toward realistic odds to achieve the same goals as without such an SSR and that the game moves along a bit faster because there is less unnecessary movement (skulking) during turns.​
It really is very simple...just allow GO units to move in/out of foxholes the same as brokies do. No need for a lot of extra chrome or verbiage.
 

wrongway149

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I think I would rather be in woods than a foxhole vs possible overrun...most players won't even attempt overrun into woods.
OK well let me plant some trees on the battlefield in my Prep Fire Phase. Five or less turns it into a woods hex!! :rolleyes:
 
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