AP/HE Equivalency?

KenH

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I have a few questions on the topic of AP/HE Equivalency (C8.31). See the relevant text below:

9930
Let's start with AP.
1. I believe that this option exists for when a gun only has AP (no HE) and the target is Infantry hiding behind a wall or in a bld/rubble/pillbox? Is there any other time that one would desire to shoot AP as an "HE equivalent"? Just wondering...

Let's move on to HEAT.
2. I understand when to use this (HEAT vs. Personnel hiding as per above) - the first three column are clear in which IFT columns to use for which weapon. But the last column ("Other Ordnance") is for guns that have H# (not H9 as per note #3), but the column that I should use is not clear.

Let's say that the gun is a Russian 76L. Normally, on the IFT, this ordnance (not halved) would use the 12 column and if shooting HE (halved for Area fire), would use the 4 column. According to C8.31, if this gun was shooting HEAT at a Personnel hiding as per above, would I use the 2 column (left of 4) or 8 column (left of 12)?

Thanks, in advance.
 

jrv

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Let's start with AP.
1. I believe that this option exists for when a gun only has AP (no HE) and the target is Infantry hiding behind a wall or in a bld/rubble/pillbox? Is there any other time that one would desire to shoot AP as an "HE equivalent"? Just wondering...
AP can always be used on the Infantry Target Type. Think big bullets. It can be used against soft targets in any kind of terrain. The wall/building/rubble/pillbox restriction applies to HEAT, not AP.
It can't be used with the Area Target Type.

The primary uses for AP using the Infantry Target Type are when a gun has no HE, as you say, and when shooting at a pillbox per B30.35.

JR
 

jrv

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Let's move on to HEAT.
2. I understand when to use this (HEAT vs. Personnel hiding as per above) - the first three column are clear in which IFT columns to use for which weapon. But the last column ("Other Ordnance") is for guns that have H# (not H9 as per note #3), but the column that I should use is not clear.
There is a difference between H#[9] and H9 (H#). The square bracket part is significant. H#[9] is used for weapons that use Stielgrenate ammunition. Stielgrenate ammunition is loaded "outside" at the end of the barrel like a spigot mortar, as shown below for the German 37mm ATG. H9 (or H#) is ordinary HEAT ammunition that is loaded in the breach like any other shell.



Let's say that the gun is a Russian 76L. Normally, on the IFT, this ordnance (not halved) would use the 12 column and if shooting HE (halved for Area fire), would use the 4 column. According to C8.31, if this gun was shooting HEAT at a Personnel hiding as per above, would I use the 2 column (left of 4) or 8 column (left of 12)?
Ordnance is never halved for Area Fire (do you mean the Area Target Type?). Per C.4 there is a TH DRM when firing where an attack would be affected by Area Fire. In your example, even if firing at a concealed target HEAT for the Soviet 76L would be rolled on the eight column, one to the left of its normal HE column, the twelve column as you say.

JR
 
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Paul M. Weir

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Let's say that the gun is a Russian 76L. Normally, on the IFT, this ordnance (not halved) would use the 12 column and if shooting HE (halved for Area fire), would use the 4 column. According to C8.31, if this gun was shooting HEAT at a Personnel hiding as per above, would I use the 2 column (left of 4) or 8 column (left of 12)?
The 76L uses 12 FP unhalved (correct) but 6 halved (not 4) on the IFT. As JRV just pointed out (while I typed), you would only halve the FP when using the ATT, not when firing against, say, a concealed target (in which case your TH suffers a +2 TH DRM, but no IFT halving/DRM). Using the ATT I would first reduce the column 12 to 8 then halve to 4, at least that's my interpretation. As it happens you could first halve 12 to 6 and go down a column and arrive at the exact same 4.

Whether you drop a column first then halve or halve then drop a column only matters for the 50, 100 and 150mm equivalents where the halve then drop column gives a column lower than drop column then halve.
 

KenH

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There is a difference between H#[9] and H9 (H#). The square bracket part is significant. H#[9] is used for weapons that use Stielgrenate ammunition. Stielgrenate ammunition is loaded "outside" at the end of the barrel like a spigot mortar, as shown below for the German 37mm ATG. H9 (or H#) is ordinary HEAT ammunition that is loaded in the breach like any other shell.





Ordnance is never halved for Area Fire (do you mean the Area Target Type?). Per C.4 there is a TH DRM when firing where an attack would be affected by Area Fire. In your example, even if firing at a concealed target HEAT for the Soviet 76L would be rolled on the eight column, one to the left of its normal HE column, the twelve column as you say.

JR
Thanks. I read up on the 37L ATG Pak 35/36. Note B of Chapter H describes what you wrote above. Very cool pic, btw.

Regarding ATT vs. Area Fire (concealed), I don't know what I meant. This is confusing stuff. I wish that I could find a flow chart that shows what types of ammo can be used under what circumstances and for what types of target types and how each process works. So far, I have mostly avoided AFV scenarios or just stuck with the simple AP TH/TK process for tank-vs-tank battles.

But, the thread above has enlightened me. Confused me a bit, too... Need to read it a few times.
 

jrv

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So far, I have mostly avoided AFV scenarios or just stuck with the simple AP TH/TK process for tank-vs-tank battles.
APCR/APDS is your best AFV killer at typical ranges. AP is next best. HEAT is usually only useful and used vs AFVs when the weapon has no other option. There might be a weapon or two where the HEAT is better than AP, but I can't think of any. If you have a shot at extreme (for ASL) ranges HEAT might be better because AP effectiveness drops off with range.

Important Note: German HEAT is only available in May '42 and later [C8.3]. This is not marked on the counters. Nothing worse than coming across a couple nunchuks using Stielgranate in June '41, or worse still, Poland.

JR
 
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Paul M. Weir

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Regarding ATT vs. Area Fire (concealed), I don't know what I meant. This is confusing stuff. I wish that I could find a flow chart that shows what types of ammo can be used under what circumstances and for what types of target types and how each process works.
Area Fire:
With FP/IFE you halve the FP for each Area case (spraying, concealed, etc) as there is no TH, just an IFT DR.

For ordnance you add a +2 DRM for each Area case to the TH DR, in addition to other possible TH DRM. Once you hit there is no change to the IFT FP equivalent.
EG: a 447 and a 76L both fire at a concealed 467 3 hexes away. The 447's FP is halved and you DR on the 2 FP IFT column. The 76L (basic TH = 10) adds +2 on the TH DR and hits on <=8. If you hit then you resolve on the full 76L's 12 FP IFT column. If the 467 was in woods the an extra +1 TH DRM applies and you hit on <=7, still with the full 12 FP.

ATT:
The original FP is halved right from the get go. Firing against a concealed 467 with a 76L at 20 hexes incurs a +2 TH DRM (concealed) and hits on <=7 (basic TH 8 +1 (L), concealed +2 DRM). If you hit, then you DR on the 6 FP column. If the 467 was also in woods then you still hit on <=7 but the DR on the 6 FP IFT column has a +1 TEM DRM.

In most ordnance cases you apply a DRM to the TH but not to the IFT effects, ATT is the exception where TEM apply to the IFT effects DR and other DRM to the TH DR.

So why would you fire on the ATT when you loose ROF (EXC: MTR) and attack at half FP? You normally do that when the effectively required TH # on the ITT or VTT becomes far too low. You can still gain acquisition with the ATT attacks and then possibly switch to ITT/VTT with your earned acquisition in subsequent fire phases. Sometimes plastering an enemy tank with weak HE is better than missing with AP.

Area Fire is not the same as Area Type Target and the shared use of the word "Area" can be confusing, though often the end results can be somewhat similar.

As for what types of ammo: As jrv rightly corrected me, only HE or SMOKE (IE Smoke or WP) for ATT, all ammo types for ITT and VTT.
 

Eagle4ty

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Area Fire:
With FP/IFE you halve the FP for each Area case (spraying, concealed, etc) as there is no TH, just an IFT DR.

For ordnance you add a +2 DRM for each Area case to the TH DR, in addition to other possible TH DRM. Once you hit there is no change to the IFT FP equivalent.
EG: a 447 and a 76L both fire at a concealed 467 3 hexes away. The 447's FP is halved and you DR on the 2 FP IFT column. The 76L (basic TH = 10) adds +2 on the TH DR and hits on <=8. If you hit then you resolve on the full 76L's 12 FP IFT column. If the 467 was in woods the an extra +1 TH DRM applies and you hit on <=7, still with the full 12 FP.

ATT:
The original FP is halved right from the get go. Firing against a concealed 467 with a 76L at 20 hexes incurs a +2 TH DRM (concealed) and hits on <=7 (basic TH 8 +1 (L), concealed +2 DRM). If you hit, then you DR on the 6 FP column. If the 467 was also in woods then you still hit on <=7 but the DR on the 6 FP IFT column has a +1 TEM DRM.

In most ordnance cases you apply a DRM to the TH but not to the IFT effects, ATT is the exception where TEM apply to the IFT effects DR and other DRM to the TH DR.

So why would you fire on the ATT when you loose ROF (EXC: MTR) and attack at half FP? You normally do that when the effectively required TH # on the ITT or VTT becomes far too low. You can still gain acquisition with the ATT attacks and then possibly switch to ITT/VTT with your earned acquisition in subsequent fire phases. Sometimes plastering an enemy tank with weak HE is better than missing with AP.

Area Fire is not the same as Area Type Target and the shared use of the word "Area" can be confusing, though often the end results can be somewhat similar.

As for what types of ammo: As jrv rightly corrected me, only HE or SMOKE (IE Smoke or WP) for ATT, all ammo types for ITT and VTT.
Actually Paul, the 76L would be firing at the concealed 4-6-7 using ITT with a Base TH#=8 (TH#10 is vs AFV using the VTT) at a range of three and +2 to the TH DR for Case K for the target being concealed (Special note here for Ken: It is important the shot is configured this way and not just deducting 2 from the TH# for Case K because of the possibility of a CH when using ITT_See C3.7 and assoc Table on QRDC).

You did not say this but I believe intimated it; One may wish to fire HE at an AFV (VTT) that is CE where the AF of the target presented to the firer is too great to be penetrated by other ammo thus you would get a higher HE/IFT attack against the CE crew than if you had just relied upon the specific collateral attack from an AP hit using its HE Equivalency.

Also, you are not correct when you say all ammo types may be fired when using ITT & VTT, See C3.33 "The Area Target Type must be used at all times by mortars and whenever ordnance [EXC: LATW] attempts to fire SMOKE;..."

;)
 

klasmalmstrom

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The primary uses for AP using the Infantry Target Type are when a gun has no HE, as you say, and when shooting at a pillbox per B30.35.
A secondary use is when you have limited HE (e.g., Marders) and you want shoot mainly to gain acquisition.
 

Vinnie

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APCR/APDS is your best AFV killer at typical ranges. AP is next best. HEAT is usually only useful and used vs AFVs when the weapon has no other option. There might be a weapon or two where the HEAT is better than AP, but I can't think of any. If you have a shot at extreme (for ASL) ranges HEAT might be better because AP effectiveness drops off with range.

Important Note: German HEAT is only available in May '42 and later [C8.3]. This is not marked on the counters. Nothing worse than coming across a couple nunchuks using Stielgranate in June '41, or worse still, Poland.

JR
The Russian 76L springs to mind. The AP and HEAT have the same penetration so ranges of 19 or more HEAT is better.
 

jrv

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Any of the weapons using Stielgranate are obviously better off using HEAT, but those are special cases. The German short-barreled 75's as mounted on the Pz IV A-F & StuG IIIB ₁ are also better off using HEAT, but they are also even more better off avoiding enemy AFVs.

JR
 
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