Changing TCA/VCA at end of fire phase

Velocette

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Trying to make sure that I correctly understand the rule below:

From SK4 RB, p12; Section 3.3.2: A TCA/VCA maybe also be changed without MP expenditure as a result of firing outside CA during any fire phase (other than its own MPh)

OR

at the the end of any fire phase in which it is still eligible to fire a turret/bow mounted weapon without using Intensive Fire.

So in the PFPh, an AFV fires its MA and loses ROF and then fires it BMG. At the end of the phase, can it change its TCA? VCA? because the CMG is still able to fire?

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Velo
 

jrv

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Trying to make sure that I correctly understand the rule below:

From SK4 RB, p12; Section 3.3.2: A TCA/VCA maybe also be changed without MP expenditure as a result of firing outside CA during any fire phase (other than its own MPh)

OR

at the the end of any fire phase in which it is still eligible to fire a turret/bow mounted weapon without using Intensive Fire.

So in the PFPh, an AFV fires its MA and loses ROF and then fires it BMG. At the end of the phase, can it change its TCA? VCA? because the CMG is still able to fire?
A CMG (or a MA) allows change to either TCA or VCA. A BMG allows change to VCA only.

JR
 

Velocette

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Does a CE AFV crew manning an AAMG permit TCA change?

I think NOT since it was not included in JR's initial response, but I thought it worth asking since: 1) it is "mounted" on the turret and 2) I need "newbie closure" on questions" :geek:

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jrv

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Does a CE AFV crew manning an AAMG permit TCA change?

I think NOT since it was not included in JR's initial response, but I thought it worth asking since: 1) it is "mounted" on the turret and 2) I need "newbie closure" on questions" :geek:
AAMGs never require CA change and never allow CA change. I don't see that the rules explicitly describe this, but the CA of a BMG is the VCA, the CA of a CMG is the TCA, the CA of a RMG is the "reverse" of the TCA, and an AAMG has no CA, i.e. it can fire 360°. Note also that the AAMG is not affected by TCA/VCA change DRMs (except possibly indirectly when firegrouping with other weapons). See the Vehicular MG Example for hints that this is how it should be played.

A few non-ASLSK vehicles have AAMGs that are fixed to either the turret or the hull, but ASLSK does not have any such weapons.

JR
 

jrv

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except for the Hetzers and Stugs
You are right. For some reason I thought that ASLSK only had turreted vehicles. However only the StuG IIIG (and the StuH 42) have limited CAs for their AAMG. The Hetzer may fire its AAMG in any direction.

So to amend my previous post, AAMGs that have restricted CAs can be used to change VCA.

JR
 

jrv

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SK vehicular notes align with ASL
Most do, but if you look at the Italian MR/35(f) you will find that its MG can't be put into AA position, unlike ASL.

That said, what I can't find is a rule that says the CMG can only fire in the TCA and the BMG can only fire through the VCA. Ah, the information is in 3.2.4 and not with the vehicle rules. The AAMG's lack of CA (for most AAMGs) has to be inferred from the lack of a rule. It might have been nice to include a sentence mentioning it.

JR
 

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A few more questions about the free TCA/VCA. (As pertains to full ASL)

D3.12 ...The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA (Case A), or at the end of any friendly fire phase in which the AFV is eligible to fire (a turret-mounted weapon for TCA or turret/bow-mounted weapon for VCA) without using Intensive Fire (as per C3.22).
Ok... I'm the attacker. Prepfire just ended. Can any of my unmoved AFVs, which are armed and unfired and remain entitled to a non-IF shot, make one free VCA (without paying MP, it's the end of the prepfire phase after all) -- and then proceed to the Mph able to move?

Can a free VCA be used to change an AFV 180 degrees on a bypass hexside? (Or a narrow street... same idea.)

An AFV retains a non IF shot with its ALL weapons (MA&CMG&BMG) at the end of its Mph... is it entitled to a free TCA/VCA at the end of its Mph? the Mph? at end of the Dph? or not at all? Would it still be entitled to a second VCA (if indeed it otherwise had one) if it previously that turn took a free VCA at the end of the prepfire phase?
 

jrv

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A few more questions about the free TCA/VCA. (As pertains to full ASL)



Ok... I'm the attacker. Prepfire just ended. Can any of my unmoved AFVs, which are armed and unfired and remain entitled to a non-IF shot, make one free VCA (without paying MP, it's the end of the prepfire phase after all) -- and then proceed to the Mph able to move?

Can a free VCA be used to change an AFV 180 degrees on a bypass hexside? (Or a narrow street... same idea.)

An AFV retains a non IF shot with its ALL weapons (MA&CMG&BMG) at the end of its Mph... is it entitled to a free TCA/VCA at the end of its Mph? the Mph? at end of the Dph? or not at all? Would it still be entitled to a second VCA (if indeed it otherwise had one) if it previously that turn took a free VCA at the end of the prepfire phase?
I believe the intention is that if a vehicle changes its CA in the PFPh, it is marked with a Prep marker and thus ineligible to move.

I believe the intention is that if a vehicle is ineligible to change CA in its current situation (also including bogged, immobilized), D3.12 does not allow it to do so.

The MPh is not a fire phase [index], so you can't change CA at its end using D3.12. The (friendly) DFPh is a fire phase, so a friendly unit could change CA at its end. As a friendly vehicle could not fire in the enemy PFPh or DFPh, it could not change CA in both the PFPh and the DFPh of the same player turn; it is not eligible to fire in one of them.

JR
 

Pyth

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I believe the intention is that if a vehicle changes its CA in the PFPh, it is marked with a Prep marker and thus ineligible to move.

I believe you. In fact I've been playing it what you'd call "correctly" -- but how do I win an argument with a rules lawyer who insists on verbatim? Honestly this is a bit dismaying I was hoping you'd point me to some rule I'd overlooked... I'm used to being told: screw whatever you think 'intention' is, just read the words alone... but here that doesn't work. ? A3.1 and 3.2 are pretty clear. Prep fire markers are for units that fired. Units (that can move at all) can move in the Mph if they haven't fired, been marked opp fire, or TI labored in the prep phase. Very hard to see how any of that includes making a free TCA/VCA.

Here's my take-away: "An AFV which is is eligible to fire without IF may make an TCA/VCA in lieu of firing and is marked with a fire marker appropriate to the phase" I do wish the RB included something to that effect.

I believe the intention is that if a vehicle is ineligible to change CA in its current situation (also including bogged, immobilized), D3.12 does not allow it to do so.

Good. I'm with you. The 180 degree immobilized bypass narrow-street reversal sleaze shall be strangled in the crib! Die! thing of evil!

The MPh is not a fire phase [index], so you can't change CA at its end using D3.12. The (friendly) DFPh is a fire phase, so a friendly unit could change CA at its end. As a friendly vehicle could not fire in the enemy PFPh or DFPh, it could not change CA in both the PFPh and the DFPh of the same player turn; it is not eligible to fire in one of them.

Yeah I checked the index. I feel like someone (you?) has pointed out to me that for some rule circumstances the Mph/Dph can be considered a sort of long two-part phase, which is why I was asking if the DFPh was in some sense the end of the Mph. Ok, that sounds crazy.

I'm pretty sure I've had free VCA/TCAs played against me a variety of incorrect (as well as correct) ways. I've been in a rules murk about it and have settled for doing things conservatively. It seems conservative is correct here. I think for once the murk wasn't entirely of my own creation.--Pyth

JR
 

jrv

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Yeah I checked the index. I feel like someone (you?) has pointed out to me that for some rule circumstances the Mph/Dph can be considered a sort of long two-part phase, which is why I was asking if the DFPh was in some sense the end of the Mph. Ok, that sounds crazy.
The particular rule is A.15. It is actually a very specific rule that says that units may fire in both the enemy MPh and the friendly DFPh without being considered as firing in two phases. Players often (mis-)remember it as saying the enemy MPh and the DFPh are treated as the same for all sorts of other things. That way of remembering it is a convenient shorthand, but it leads to all kinds of misunderstandings.

JR
 
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