Dummies and their lies

Justiciar

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Specialist Pyth.

Brooks asked a theoretical question, and the answer was within the bounds of the rulebook " A 5/8" Dummy stack can claim to be....a vehicle but except for moving is treated like a 1/2 inch Dummy stack..." COWTRA right there. The rules don't limit you to a specific vehicle, you might even claim to have a captured speed -demon Hellcat when you are playing as the Japanese. Silly sure, your OPFOR rolling on the floor sure...likely to play you again with that stunt ...no.

"any vehicle in your OB" although that could be a very good and fair way to play it...there are lots of house rules like that that improve the game.

As for anarchy me thinks his lordship does exaggerate as the chances of getting away with the stunt for any length of time is limited for reasons jrv alludes to.

I have over 1,000 ASL games...maybe this has come up in 2 or 3 times, maybe? It is not an every 5th game occurrence.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...
 

Mister T

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I wish there would be "speed" limits (ie MP limits) to 5/8" dummy counters in the RB, otherwise they are just helicopters (Korea? :)).
 

Pyth

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Specialist Pyth.

The rules don't limit you to a specific vehicle, you might even claim to have a captured speed -demon Hellcat when you are playing as the Japanese.... [snip]...
I have over 1,000 ASL games...maybe this has come up in 2 or 3 times, maybe? It is not an every 5th game occurrence.
Justicar...

Pardon my insubordinate tone earlier, but with all hyperbole and irony removed, I very genuinely consider the non-OB dummies idea just awful and not something I want to ever face in a game.

I completely agree that it is of extremely limited practical use and this debate is, in practical terms, almost entirely "theoretical" -- But not entirely. You've say you've seen this come up 2 or 3 times... so it does come up. I very frankly do not want to play even one in a thousand games where an absurd captured-hellcat-dummy races around to otherwise unreachable places for reasons I can't presently conceive.

Preventing this is imho what COWTRA means if it means anything. Dummies are for deception. They are for imitating real units deceptively. What The Rules Allow is for them to be as deceptive as possible while not allowing them to do things they can't do -- like impede the progress of a real unit entering their location or to strip concealment. What The Rules Allow are "?" units that can be placed and played deceptively as if from your OB. What the rules do not focus on, promote or attend to is the use of dummies outside that purpose. The ability to prevent concealment growth is I fully believe a consequence of preserving dummies' ability to deceive. In ASL smart players can be expected to get maximum value out of the unintended consequences of rules like these -- so for example always leaving a dummy on the board even when it isn't fooling anyone precisely because it can prevent concealment growth... that's a kind of gamesmanship we all accept and enjoy. But I think you take COWTRA and gamesmanship past the breaking point when you allow dummies to ramble around utterly non-deceptively in non OB ways simply because the rules have neglected to disallow it. If you've only seen this 2 or 3 times it may be because such non-deceptive non-OB dummies are not accepted practice, because players skilled enough and creative enough to find a use for such a practice, nevertheless refrain.

I think super experienced players like yourself and JRV develop almost an over-familiarity with the rules... a non-disallowed, disagreeable, and useful twice in a thousand games tactic -- becomes a curiosity, a rarity -- "oh hey, here's one I've never tried before, can't wait for the opportunity to spring this one on so and so." Well, what you do in the privacy of your fortified game-room is of course your own business... but just last night I taught an SK player his first full ASL game. Naturally concealment was a central topic. He was impressed by the realism it added. The Fog of War. JRV mentioned right of inspection in this thread. We played that rule stringently. He loved it. "No looking into out of LOS stacks... wow, this game doesn't fool around..." The Fog of War design for effect of that struck him as very pleasing. Good rules are aesthetically pleasing. But did I neglect something when I didn't teach him that dummies can be anything, moved like anything from any OB? Would that have been anything other than bizarre and confusing? Would it have pleased him and made him think, as he did of the other concealment rules -- wow what have I been missing this full ASL is a real improvement over SK.
 

Justiciar

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Noted. You can solve the problem they way you noted before "can only fake what is alive in your OB."
I personally don't even worry about this type of event...and there are far more games played with dummy counters. Mainly b/c I believe LOS will cause elimination of the "mythical hellcat dummy" nor do I think the dummy will reach position such that it will soak my sniper for a shot, or what have you. However, for you, it does, but you know how to solve it. I doubt I will see a 3rd edition rule book in my life time, so I won't see what they do to correct it...but something like the above is likely...which will make for interesting counter ploys like always saving a Jeep tucked away safely so you can use your dummies to claim to be that still alive Jeep....or worse the captured hellcat!
My pet peeve and what I consider far more damaging to the game is that AT-Ditches are treated as trenches...and you can bypass a trench. Madness as I see it. Now the number of games with AT-Dithes very very few overall...impact overall small...impact in a game is large where they are present. But when I play, I agree with OPFOR before hand if we play this 'no bypass of AT Ditches by vehicles.'
I wouldn't let the dummy thing get to you.
(BTW: I do not believe COWTRA covers this as you see it in your post though. It is a loop-hole but not one that undoes the game in my view. I know that threat of this mars things for you however.)
 
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von Marwitz

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Does your dummy afv have to conform to a real unit in chapter H? Meaning, can I claim my dummy afv has 75 MP available and drive all over creation? Or, in a scenario with snow, can I claim a dummy stack to have skis when my OB doesn't provide them?
The way I would play it is that for example you are playing the US, the Dummy could pose to be any unit from US chapter H, regardless of whether the "poser-unit" in question is part of your OoB or not. I would not go that far as to think it legal to pose as somthing that does not exist in chapter H i.e. "something with 250 MP", as in such a case, this would basically allow free placement of Dummy counters anywhere on board out of LOS and without the requirement of making a DR (as fake-DRs are NA). In practice in the given context, it might be wise to pose as something that is part of your OoB, though, to create a bit of fog of war.

Interesting thread! The opportunities for such capers are rather rare, but I have used them before in two or three instances not being sure, though, if I did understand what the rules allow correctly.

von Marwitz
 

Vinnie

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The way I would play it is that for example you are playing the US, the Dummy could pose to be any unit from US chapter H, regardless of whether the "poser-unit" in question is part of your OoB or not. I would not go that far as to think it legal to pose as somthing that does not exist in chapter H i.e. "something with 250 MP", as in such a case, this would basically allow free placement of Dummy counters anywhere on board out of LOS and without the requirement of making a DR (as fake-DRs are NA). In practice in the given context, it might be wise to pose as something that is part of your OoB, though, to create a bit of fog of war.

Interesting thread! The opportunities for such capers are rather rare, but I have used them before in two or three instances not being sure, though, if I did understand what the rules allow correctly.

von Marwitz
I am in agreement with you here. The dummies can act is if they are vehicles and can change from vehicle to husband back again.
I do not think the dummy has to be part of your OB. If it did, what happens when that part has died? Can you no longer move the dummy?
 

Tuomo

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Can a Dummy vehicle claim to be one kind of vehicle in one MPh and another kind in a later MPh? This turn I'm moving like a halftrack. Next turn I sashay over a Wall because I'm fully-tracked.

Seems... specious. I prefer to eschew speciousity.
 

Vinnie

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Can a Dummy vehicle claim to be one kind of vehicle in one MPh and another kind in a later MPh? This turn I'm moving like a halftrack. Next turn I sashay over a Wall because I'm fully-tracked.

Seems... specious. I prefer to eschew speciousity.
Yes.
 

Eagle4ty

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How about variable OB scenarios? If you select a non-vehicle portion of the available purchase items and your OB no longer longer has a vehicle type unit in its OB (what has not been selected cannot be counted as in your OB), would you say one couldn't choose to have a 5/8" Dummy stack to hopefully confuse your opponent?
 

Justiciar

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How about variable OB scenarios? If you select a non-vehicle portion of the available purchase items and your OB no longer longer has a vehicle type unit in its OB (what has not been selected cannot be counted as in your OB), would you say one couldn't choose to have a 5/8" Dummy stack to hopefully confuse your opponent?
Yes, as you can tell from upstream...I am effectively in the Vinnie camp a la post 29 (possibly now I have to be shot too) b/c the dummy can change attributes at will so long as it conforms to a Chapter H land based vehicle...see the demon hellcat theme further upstream. Now do I do this? No, heck no. But the rule is open ended for it. That the loop should be closed, sure.

Barring some form of VC or SSR, the best that I can see this scam being for is a) sniper soak, and b) deny friendly concealment (far more likely than "a") but can be tricky as you have to foresee where the enemy will position to grow ahead of them, as you can't just drive into LOS. But as jrv has noted likely that LOS / ground conditions will cause problematic use in general (of course less so on dense city boards where one could take back roads into the enemy back field).

In any case far greater things to fret over ahead of this....
 

von Marwitz

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Barring some form of VC or SSR, the best that I can see this scam being for is a) sniper soak, and b) deny friendly concealment
Exactly these objectives were on my mind.

Back in my game, it was b). I cannot remember the details but seem to recall it was a meeting-engagement. I rushed a 5/8" Dummy along a Woods-Road out of LOS to an area where the enemy might be planning to enter. In my 2nd MPh, I had the Dummy in position (now "posing" as a tank for movement purposes). In the the 2nd enemy MPh, he reached the edge of his woods, where my Dummy served to deny Concealment. This gave me an advantage as during my 3rd MPh, I could catch up with my slower (real) forces and advance into position to face an unconcealed enemy.

von Marwitz
 

Vinnie

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If no fake rolls then how would you treat a dummy 5/8 if all OB tanks have red MPs?
I don't think a dummy needs to represent anything in the OB. They also can't enter bog terrain as a vehicle. But a 5/8" counter can as infantry....
 

von Marwitz

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How come your OPFOR did not enter concealed...your dummy could not have striped him?
I can't remember the details but there was some reason for it. Maybe it had to cross LOS from another of my friendly units but out of range. Don't know any more.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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If no fake rolls then how would you treat a dummy 5/8 if all OB tanks have red MPs?
If you play it the way that Dummies can only pose as units that are part of your Scenario OoB (which I is not required as I see it), then I reckon it could not pose as a tank with red MPs - at least if it started requiring a (fake) DR. But maybe the Dummy red MP tank entered in Motion and did not stop before reaching your intended destination for it.

von Marwitz
 

Tater

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In the words of Adrian Cronauer I have never see a thread in more dire need of an application of COWTRA!

Dummy units not provided by the OB racing across the map!? Come on. Why not dummy units from dummy modules... My dummy Area 51 fliers from the Forbidden Technology module teleport into place? Show me in the rules where it says I cant.

I think asking that limiting dummies to something on the OB is reasonable commonsense and avoids the decadent balderdash of nonsensical dummy units abusing movement capabilities to get to places they shouldnt to deny concealment growth behind enemy lines... ugh.

The House Rule discussed earlier that dummies be truly plausible (eg. no moving a dummy stack as if it had a leader if all OB provided real leaders are already plainly visible on Board) is imo a completely workable house rule in a casual game but isn't directly supported by the rules and could be argued is too restrictive...

I think a decent default on this is:

Dummy stacks units can move as if representing any type of OB provided unit currently available. (ie. no dummy Jeeps in turn one if the first Jeeps arrive with turn three reinforcements.) YEAH, I know Im just making stuff up... but if the alternative is anarchy....
My experience is that, the more you move dummies, the more they look like dummies. IOW, it's a "tell" in that players invariable move "real" units in a sensible methodology while it is less so with dummies. So, sure, run that stack of '?' behind my lines...does that move make sense vs the VC? No! Dummies!
 

Pyth

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@Tater

What if in a game between you and I -- my HIP'd SFCP observer has become unconcealed in an out-of-the way corner where you won't have a decent shot at him for a while. So being a crafty resourceful Tater, you have repositioned your 6SAN Sniper counter over this game critical threat of mine... he's the nearest unit in six hexes in all directions and the next hot or warm SA can't NOT hit him. Damn I wish I'd seen this coming... oh wait, I did... So, in this no-vehicles scenario where the NOBA is seriously significant... I'll now take my dummy captured german prime-mover or motorcycles-with-sidecars (I'm playing the Marines, FYI) all loaded up with dummy SMC passenger/riders and I'll run them over to the foot of my OBA observers hill to act as sniper sponges? This nice thing about this is I didn't have to put any dummies or real units at a reasonable distance from the observer at set up which would make my observer's hideout easier to find, in fact I used them as decoy at the position your Japanese were desperately trying to reach... but needed on the other side of the board they can get there on the roads where they need to be to soak up the sniper fire. And they moved just like real units (just 'real units' that couldn't possibly actually show up in this scenario).

This all strikes me as pure abuse of the dummy rules. And speaking of abuse -- I'm gonna rain Naval OBA down upon your men like an Old Testament God on a bad day.

Here's the only limitation on dummy movement I can find in the rulebook -- "A stack of Dummies containing no real unit may be moved as if it contains a real unit (even to the extent of being able to move with leader/Double Time MF bonuses)."

Sadly the index does not define "real unit." In fact, it fails to define many words and common phrases in the English language we would be expected to agree on if we weren't ASL players. Lousy Rule Book.

Me, I think defining a "real unit" as any unit in any module anywhere is just ludicrous -- can I use PTO dummy fakes in the ETO or vice versa? Can I use 1945 MP in a 1936 scenario? Can I use third party provider units? Would I have to own a physical unit counter or just know about them?

Defining a 'real unit' as: a unit that could really appear in the game you are playing based on the Scenario Card you are using is such an obvious call I honestly can't believe I need to defend it! Dummy units (that want to move) need to move like a real unit: a unit that could move in that game, for real.
 
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