Routing towards the enemy

turlusiflu

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Which are the possible routing destinations for the broken unit in Y5? W6 and X6 are closer to the enemy in U5, that is in LOS of his current location; but providing that he could reach X6 in less than 6 MF, can he designate X6 as destination, and do Low Crawl to Y6?

In the case that he couldn't designate X6, his only option is AA4. If it were the case, providing that he could reach AA4 through the route Y6-Z5-AA5-AA4 in less than 6 MF, can he do Low Crawl to Y6, or doing Low Crawl obliges him to go to Z4?

If he decides not to use Low Crawl, as long he can reach AA4 in 6 MF or less he can start moving to Y6. Then, he realizes of the presence of DD3, and prevents him from going to Z5. At this point he has to designate a new destiny, that in this case can be V8, that he can reach throughout the Routing movement. Is that correct?
 

buser333

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Which are the possible routing destinations for the broken unit in Y5? W6 and X6 are closer to the enemy in U5, that is in LOS of his current location; but providing that he could reach X6 in less than 6 MF, can he designate X6 as destination, and do Low Crawl to Y6?

In the case that he couldn't designate X6, his only option is AA4. If it were the case, providing that he could reach AA4 through the route Y6-Z5-AA5-AA4 in less than 6 MF, can he do Low Crawl to Y6, or doing Low Crawl obliges him to go to Z4?

If he decides not to use Low Crawl, as long he can reach AA4 in 6 MF or less he can start moving to Y6. Then, he realizes of the presence of DD3, and prevents him from going to Z5. At this point he has to designate a new destiny, that in this case can be V8, that he can reach throughout the Routing movement. Is that correct?
W6 and X6 are not options as you mentioned they are moving closer to KEU in U5.

Assuming they do not see DD3 from where they are now (and that AA6 does not have rout terrain), you are correct AA4 is their destination.

If they low crawl they must move closer to their destination, therefore Z4 as you said.

If they outright rout to Y6 en route to AA4 they will see DD3 and need to pick a new destination, which looks to be anywhere (not moving closer to any KEU) on the map upon my quick glance as I do not believe they can reach another destination with 6 MF.
 

Mister T

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If he decides not to use Low Crawl, as long he can reach AA4 in 6 MF or less he can start moving to Y6. Then, he realizes of the presence of DD3, and prevents him from going to Z5. At this point he has to designate a new destiny, that in this case can be V8, that he can reach throughout the Routing movement. Is that correct?
Correct, he can go to V8.
 

jrv

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V8 can also be ignored when choosing a new destination. It is an option, but because it is equidistant from U5, it can also be ignored. If the broken unit ignores V8, it has no other woods/building it can reach in this RtPh (at least on the snippet you have posted), so it can designate any other hex not closer to enemy units it knows/knew about as its destination. It might choose AA8, for instance, and rout there Y6-Z6-AA7-AA8. It would risk interdiction in Z6 & AA7. Without knowing, Y9 might be an option too.

JR
 

MajorDomo

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I don't see how the router can ignore AA4 as his initial rout destination. It is three MF away and a building.
 

jrv

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I don't see how the router can ignore AA4 as his initial rout destination. It is three MF away and a building.
It cannot and indeed does not, but it need not take the shortest path as long as it can get there in one RtPh. By avoiding Z4 it avoids interdiction, and by going through Y6 instead of Z5 (both of which still allow it to reach AA4, as far as it knows at the start of the RtPh), it opens the door to reaching V8 on a re-compute. It might also go to Z5 and re-compute, and it might even go to Z4, take interdiction and re-compute, but going through Y6 seems the most elegant.

JR
 

turlusiflu

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So, the right interpretation of the rule is: you cannot desígnate a destination closer to a known enemy unit (even if you may legally Low Crowl towards it); you may ignore a destination that is at the same distance than a known enemy unit
 

Binchois

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So, the right interpretation of the rule is: you cannot desígnate a destination closer to a known enemy unit (even if you may legally Low Crowl towards it); you may ignore a destination that is at the same distance than a known enemy unit
Correct.

If they low crawl they must move closer to their destination, therefore Z4 as you said.
This makes sense, but I never realized that a Low Crawler absolutely had to crawl towards its intended target hex. Is this true? The rule seems to say so (A10.52):

All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF.​

...but the problem is the word "still." The rule is really trying to say that other Rout rules apply unchanged. There is no rule that says the router invariably must rout towards its target hex. As we see from the above discussion, the unit could choose AA4 as its initial destination, yet rout first into Y6. To me this means that the unit could therefore Low Crawl into Y6 (for better or for worse).

Y6 seems the most elegant...
Elegance is the Sophisticated Router's primary concern.
8708
 

jrv

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q&a said:
A10.51 If a DM broken unit that must rout is within six MF of the nearest woods/building, must it attempt to reach the woods/building in a single RtPh?
A. Yes, unless it uses Low Crawl, but it need not take the shortest route (in hexes/MF) to do so.Even if it uses Low Crawl, however, it must still do so toward that woods/building (i.e., at no time may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building, and must end that RtPh closer to it than it was at the start of the phase).
[An92; An95w; An96; Mw]
I'm going to change my answer. Routing into Y6 would increase the range in hexes. which is contrary to what is allowed by the q&a. I think the broken units still has to choose AA4 as its target. Once it does its options are 1) low crawl into Z4, 2) rout normally into Z4, take interdiction, and re-figure its rout, or 3) rout normally into Z5 then re-compute. It can't rout into Y6 because that would increase the range in hexes, and it can't low crawl into Z5 because that would not end closer. The q&a is unclear as to whether "closer" is in hexes or in MF, but in this case the unit would become closer in neither sense.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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It can't rout into Y6 because that would increase the range in hexes, and it can't low crawl into Z5 because that would not end closer. The q&a is unclear as to whether "closer" is in hexes or in MF, but in this case the unit would become closer in neither sense.
I think a normal rout into Y6 is ok - the "no time may it increase the hex range..." part only applies to Low Crawl I think.

I don't see this part in the current rules dealing with a non-LC rout: "at no time may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building"

I think it was that Q&A that is the source of the addition (in red) to A10.52 in the second edtion:
"All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF."
 
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klasmalmstrom

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The q&a says, "even if it uses Low Crawl", which to me says it applies to normal rout as well.
Even so, I see no such text in the current (2nd Edition) rules - one would have thought if that applied, that 1st Edition Q&A would have been incorporated somehow?
 

Binchois

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The q&a says, "even if it uses Low Crawl", which to me says it applies to normal rout as well.

JR
Thanks for digging out this Q&A, JR. I agree that the restriction should apply to both regular routing and Low Crawl. If so, however, there is clearly a problem with the RB.

In the RB, Routers (under the routing rules) are not absolutely denied the ability to move further from their destination. The Low Crawl Rules merely say that regular rout rules apply:

A10.52 ...All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF.​
While it might intend to limit Low Crawlers from moving further from their destination, it reads literally as saying that they must still select the nearest woods/building target location in an attempt to reach it using the standard rout rules.

The Q&A seems to imply the opposite:

Q. (A10.51) If a DM broken unit that must rout is within six MF of the nearest woods/building, must it attempt to reach the woods/building in a single RtPh?​
A. Yes, unless it uses Low Crawl, but it need not take the shortest route (in hexes/MF) to do so. Even if it uses Low Crawl, however, it must still do so toward that woods/building (i.e., at no time may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building, and must end that RtPh closer to it than it was at the start of the phase). [An92; An95w; An96; Mw]​

If that last portion of A10.52 ("e.g. rout must still be towards...") was a second edition addition, then it was placed under the wrong section. It should have been one of the restrictions listed under A10.51. If the intention is that only Low Crawlers are so restricted, then it needs to be stated in the heart of paragraph A10.52, and not as an example of "other Rout provisions..."
 

jrv

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Even so, I see no such text in the current (2nd Edition) rules - one would have thought if that applied, that 1st Edition Q&A would have been incorporated somehow?
Perhaps it might be necessary to re-ask the question. I know that "unofficial" q&a were voided. That is an "officially published" q&a. Were they also voided?

A10.52 says "All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF," which implies that routing towards is a provision of normal rout yet leaving "towards" ambiguous as to whether that requires moving towards the target at some point in the rout, or it applies to each step of the rout, or or it just applies to the rout as a whole. With the q&a I think it is clear that at each step the routing unit can't move farther away, but if the q&a is voided, then one might even take the extreme position that the rule means the unit can rout so that it ends up farther away as long as at some point during the rout it moves toward the target.

JR
 

rewa

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This thread has made me realize that I've apparently been doing it wrong all this time :-(

A10.51 says "a routing unit must move to the nearest ... building or woods hex", and it never occurred to me that this appears to include hexes out of its LOS.

How does it make any sense whatsoever that a routing unit can pick a rout target that it can't see, hasn't seen during its rout phase, and quite possibly for the entire game? Enemy units blocking rout paths have to be in LOS, but the target itself doesn't?!
 

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How does it make any sense whatsoever that a routing unit can pick a rout target that it can't see, hasn't seen during its rout phase, and quite possibly for the entire game? Enemy units blocking rout paths have to be in LOS, but the target itself doesn't?!
They looked at a map before the scenario started, that's how they know where to run.

Although I think I played it the other way, too.
 

jrv

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This thread has made me realize that I've apparently been doing it wrong all this time :-(

A10.51 says "a routing unit must move to the nearest ... building or woods hex", and it never occurred to me that this appears to include hexes out of its LOS.

How does it make any sense whatsoever that a routing unit can pick a rout target that it can't see, hasn't seen during its rout phase, and quite possibly for the entire game? Enemy units blocking rout paths have to be in LOS, but the target itself doesn't?!
I will guess that the units on the ground have a general knowledge of the topography, which isn't going to change during the battle. They may have marched by that building or woods on their way to battle, or they may have been in the area for some time. Location of enemy units will change, and sometimes changes very quickly. But it in other cases may just be a game mechanic.

JR
 

zgrose

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How does it make any sense whatsoever that a routing unit can pick a rout target that it can't see, hasn't seen during its rout phase, and quite possibly for the entire game? Enemy units blocking rout paths have to be in LOS, but the target itself doesn't?!
Well, one may not have LOS to a single story building a hex away from a wall, but I've have a hard time believing a squad couldn't "see" the building.

But for the most part, I find the routing rules are modeling units fleeing from enemies. Many times they are moving towards a known "safe place" but sometimes there are just running off and stumbling across a safe place. The fact that the Player has an algorithm to arbitrate this movement is just an artifact of a physical game. But YMMV.
 

rewa

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But for the most part, I find the routing rules are modeling units fleeing from enemies. Many times they are moving towards a known "safe place" but sometimes there are just running off and stumbling across a safe place.
The original situation is a good example of this. From Y5, the DM unit could maybe possibly see the top of a chimney of the AA4 building :) but from Y6, the idea that it would somehow know there's a building in V8 and start running towards it is silly. Especially given they're standing right next to a stone building, but they're not allowed to take cover in there because it's sort of a tiny bit closer to a enemy unit they saw 4 hexes away a while ago. Other people said that maybe the unit had prior knowledge of the landscape, but to say that a panicked group of men would run through 3 hexes of open ground to try to reach a building they can't even see, instead of going into the building right next to them doesn't make a lot of sense :)
 

Gordon

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But isn't that kind of what "failure to rout" represents? Desperate men making bad choices or freezing and leaving the field of battle? Not all of our cardboard soldiers that are removed from the board represent casualties.
 
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