HW, CC and AFPh

holdit

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A Russian squad is part of a Human Wave. It enters an enemy-occupied hex and subsequently routs the enemy unit from that hex in the AFPh. Can that Russian squad advance into an adjacent, enemy-occupied hex during the APh to engage in CC?

I decided No, since it already has a CC counter which will not be removed until the CC phase. Was that correct?
 

klasmalmstrom

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It can advance - in this case I believe the CC counter is removed if all enemy units leave/rout out of the Location.

A25.234:
"A unit that has been part of a HW may use Advancing Fire and/or Advance if otherwise able to [EXC: if in a Location containing a Known enemy unit it is marked with a CC counter (or a Melee counter, as appropriate; 4.152, 20.54) and cannot advance out of that Location as long as that CC/Melee continues]."
 

Binchois

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The CC counter is removed as soon as the brokies leave the hex and there are no opposing units in the Location.

While the use if CC Counters is poorly explained in the RB, this situation is confirmed within the Comprehensive Rout Example:

The broken squad in S2 must rout because of the unbroken KEU in its own Location. Its only option is to enter S3 and move upstairs to Level 1 since it cannot remain ADJACENT to the unbroken KEU in S2 (whose CC counter is removed once the broken unit leaves its Location). It cannot use Rowhouse Bypass to enter R3 because that would entail moving closer to the KEUs it remembers seeing in J6.​
 

holdit

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Yes, the CC counter - one of the ASL Rulebook's great enigmas. :D
It's got nothing on the HW rules. Do they really need to be so convoluted? I was thinking that something along the lines of...

  • Put a HW marker on each participating stack.
  • Nominate the target hex
  • The stack(s) at the centre of the wave must take the shortest route (in hexes) to the target hex
  • Stacks must maintain the positions they had relative to the other participating stacks the start of the MPh. (EXC: "closing ranks" following casualties).
...would make for easier reading and understanding.

(Said the guy with no rule-writing experience whatever... :))
 

holdit

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...and yet they give us so many of the darn things!

But they're kind of handy... Just throw one on top of any hex whenever the situation gets too complex to figure out the proper rules.
This made me laugh, because in the same game I did just that. The Russian stack had picked up a squad of prisoners and it advanced (a move or two after the one I referenced in my question) into a hex with a German squad that happened to be guarding two squads of Russian prisoners. To make matters worse, the German squad had been routed but there was an unbroken leader in the hex two, and two LMGs, one carried, one abandoned. I add the CC marker thinking I'd figure it out later. I did try...OK I tipped my hat at it...imagining the prisoners having their own punch-up while the German leader left the to it and tried to hold off the Russian 6-2-8 by himself, or imagined the Russian prisoners jumping him first...but in the end I plumped for the lazy option: the prisoners stayed out of it and the German leader won himself a posthumous gong...
 

klasmalmstrom

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It's got nothing on the HW rules. Do they really need to be so convoluted? I was thinking that something along the lines of...
They were shorter before - but that version had its own set of problems. IIRC, they said "move in the general direction" - that was vague enough to be cause for interpretation. :)

I do think, once one have done a few HW, they aren't that complicated - even with the amount of text, ymmv.
 

jrv

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It's got nothing on the HW rules. Do they really need to be so convoluted? I was thinking that something along the lines of...

  • Put a HW marker on each participating stack.
  • Nominate the target hex
  • The stack(s) at the centre of the wave must take the shortest route (in hexes) to the target hex
  • Stacks must maintain the positions they had relative to the other participating stacks the start of the MPh. (EXC: "closing ranks" following casualties).
...would make for easier reading and understanding.

(Said the guy with no rule-writing experience whatever... :))
A unit that starts on an upper level of a building might have trouble maintaining relative position. What happens if a unit runs into terrain that isn't enterable, e.g. offboard? It would be nice if all the units could converge on a single target if desired rather than being forced to run by. The general goal is simple, but once you start thinking about all the situations that these rules have to handle, you start to realize that there's a lot more to it.

Overall I think the Human Wave rules work pretty well. They are pretty mechanical, that is it is easy to decide whether a particular move is legal or not. Once you have gotten the mechanics down you don't need to re-learn them. They are flexible enough but sufficiently restrictive that they can't be abused too terribly.

JR
 

Gordon

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Isn't that the secret to good rules writing? Limiting the abuse (both intended and unintended)?
 

Gordon

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Agreed, clarity and succinctness is also important.
 
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