Assault Moving in Open and Concealment

zgrose

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When there is an LOS Hindrance in a different hex along the LOS path?
 

jrv

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Night is another case. If the unit is offboard. If there are no enemy units with LOS, or all those enemy units are not Good Order, or those enemy units are concealed and refuse to momentarily reveal themselves, or are unarmed, unarmored vehicles. There are probably a number of other cases. Is there a context for this question, or is it a general fishing expedition for rules stories?

JR
 

Nameless Jay

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Night is another case. If the unit is offboard. If there are no enemy units with LOS, or all those enemy units are not Good Order, or those enemy units are concealed and refuse to momentarily reveal themselves, or are unarmed, unarmored vehicles. There are probably a number of other cases. Is there a context for this question, or is it a general fishing expedition for rules stories?

JR
I am playing a guy who says Assault Moving in OG always retains Concealment. The wording in the Chart gives him this impression (failing to differentiate between non-concealment terrain and OG). I showed him the 2nd bullet point in 12.14, but he was not convinced. We agreed to go with the consensus of the group.
 

jrv

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I am playing a guy who says Assault Moving in OG always retains Concealment. The wording in the Chart gives him this impression (failing to differentiate between non-concealment terrain and OG). I showed him the 2nd bullet point in 12.14, but he was not convinced. We agreed to go with the consensus of the group.
In that context, assault moving in open ground does not usually maintain concealment because more often than not there is a GO enemy unit in range with LOS. As you say A12.14 gives moving in open ground as an explicit cause for loss of concealment, but this is also repeated in case B on the A12.121 chart (which applies to infantry at range <17), so I don't see how one could usefully appeal to that chart.

Note that the phrase "Open Ground" is defined in two different ways. One is the terrain, as in B1. The other is for for rout determination, dash, concealment gain/loss and interdiction per A10.531. A hex can be open ground per B1 but not per A10.531. Most often if concealment is kept for moving into open ground (in a rule B1 sense) it is because there is a hindrance between the viewer and the target making it not open ground in an A10.531 sense.

Your opponent is correct if he only plays night scenarios.

Some other ways a unit could assault move into A10.531 Open Ground and not lose concealment: if range > 16 hexes, if the unit did not have concealment to begin with.

JR
 
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Robin Reeve

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Does the Index call out both instances?
Yes.
You really should try to read it by yourself.
Open Ground (OG; for Concealment Gain/Loss, Dash, Interdiction, and Rout determination, an Open Ground hex is any hex in Normal Range in which any Interdictor could apply the -1 FFMO DRM): A10.531, B1 [Dash: A4.A63] [Deep Snow: E3.65] [Desert: F1] [for FFMO: any hex in which no positive TEM or LOS Hindrance applies: A4.6] [Ground/Deep Snow: E3.722] [Irrigation Ditches: Q1.2] [Mud: E3.65] [Overrun: D7.15] [Partial Orchard: Q3.2] [Railroad: B32.21]
 

Rock SgtDan

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Much easier if I had one of those digital versions so I could set the font size so I could read it without getting a headache, & talk about it by cutting & pasting.

But that's not a call out. It calls out the A10.531 usage of the term-of-art, but doesn't say a thing about the 'other' usage in B1. If "A hex can be open ground per B1 but not per A10.531" then its important to note that in the index so the reader reads BOTH.
 

Robin Reeve

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The Index points to both references.
Which is enough for an average reader able to go to them and collect the data.
 

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The B1 definition is largely irrelevant though to concealment loss/gain
 

Robin Reeve

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B1 is about OG as a Terrain.
It is helpful to have that reference in the Index to precisely make the difference between that notion and the rout/concealment one.
 

Larry

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Is the AM unit subject to FFMO -- if yes, then it loses concealment. That is my shorthand mnemonic. That covers just about every situation except winter cammo.
 

Ed Caswell

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Is the AM unit subject to FFMO -- if yes, then it loses concealment. That is my shorthand mnemonic. That covers just about every situation except winter cammo.

Rule A12.14 says (in next to last sentence of last Paragraph), "The presence of a LOS Hindrance or beneficial defensive DRM (such as TEM and CA change DRM) along the LOS to a concealed unit does not prevent loss of its concealment.". Thus, no FFMO if a LOS Hindrance (i.e., Brush/Grain/etc.) lies along the LOS but concealment is still lost.

Ed
 

jrv

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Is the AM unit subject to FFMO -- if yes, then it loses concealment. That is my shorthand mnemonic. That covers just about every situation except winter cammo.
At night you can move (including AM) & not lose concealment while subject to FFMO.

JR
 

Jazz

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Rule A12.14 says (in next to last sentence of last Paragraph), "The presence of a LOS Hindrance or beneficial defensive DRM (such as TEM and CA change DRM) along the LOS to a concealed unit does not prevent loss of its concealment.". Thus, no FFMO if a LOS Hindrance (i.e., Brush/Grain/etc.) lies along the LOS but concealment is still lost.

Ed
Concealment would be lost for NAM in an unhindered location with no TEM.

That last paragraph refers to general concealment loss as outlined in the bullet list earlier in A12.14. More to the point, Open Ground is called out in the second bullet item as defined by A10.531, which does involve the presence of TEM/Hinderances with respect to a spotting unit.
 

Ed Caswell

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Concealment would be lost for NAM in an unhindered location with no TEM.

That last paragraph refers to general concealment loss as outlined in the bullet list earlier in A12.14. More to the point, Open Ground is called out in the second bullet item as defined by A10.531, which does involve the presence of TEM/Hinderances with respect to a spotting unit.

So Concealment would not be lost due to the presence of a Hindrance (i.e., no FFMO) per A10.531. I had completely missed the reference to A10.531 by A12.14.

Ed
 

jrv

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So Concealment would not be lost due to the presence of a Hindrance (i.e., no FFMO) per A10.531. I had completely missed the reference to A10.531 by A12.14.
Correct as long as the hindrance cancels FFMO. Some hindrances do not cancel FFMO, e.g. LV hindrances.

JR
 
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