CC leader creation (again!)

[Vinnie]

Just had something I have never seen before. My berserker was in melee with an enemy half squad when done of their friends join in. Tgey whiff their attack and I have designated the half squad as my target (I expected to due and wanted to take someone!) I roll snakes.
A leader appears. I cannot withdraw as I am berserk. Is the leader also berserk?

Next turn I fired into the melee and broke one of his squads whom I then killed as he withdrew. The next turn I again fired into the melee hoping for a repeat. Heck I got 10 morale, he has 7. I got a 1KIA which of course selected my squad. My leader (which we played as berserk) failed his CR roll...

 

[EagleIV]

While a hero shares the status (CX, etc.) of the MMC that it came from I don't see anything that says the same for a leader so I would say the leader is not Berserk.

 

[Philippe D.]

Are you sure that your (ex)Berserk unit cannot withdraw? Since it eliminated its targets, it immediately returns to normal, so unless there's an explicit exception, I'd say it is able to withdraw.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Are you sure that your (ex)Berserk unit cannot withdraw? Since it eliminated its targets, it immediately returns to normal, so unless there's an explicit exception, I'd say it is able to withdraw.

It has to eliminate all enemy units in its Location to return to normal - not just its target - and it sounds like more enemy units entered to melee - "when some of their friends join in"

A15.46:
15.46 RETURN TO NORMAL: A berserk unit loses its berserk status and returns to Good Order whenever it (or the group it attacks with) eliminates all (but at least one) Known enemy units in its Location with either TPBF (halved) or FT during the AFPh or CC, or if at the end of a charge there is no Known enemy unit in its LOS (15.431).

 

[Vinnie]

It has to eliminate all enemy units in its Location to return to normal - not just its target - and it sounds like more enemy units entered to melee - "when some of their friends join in"

A15.46:
15.46 RETURN TO NORMAL: A berserk unit loses its berserk status and returns to Good Order whenever it (or the group it attacks with) eliminates all (but at least one) Known enemy units in its Location with either TPBF (halved) or FT during the AFPh or CC, or if at the end of a charge there is no Known enemy unit in its LOS (15.431).

That's what happened. I was in CC with 2.5 sqds and a 9-1 leader so thought I'd try to kill someone before I died so targeted only the half squad. As it was, Ian rolled very very badly so I survived to live another day but because I still has enemy in the location, I stayed berserk.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I believe the created leader is not Berserk, but since the Berserk unit can't Withdraw, I don't think the leader can either. IIRC, a group of units attacking/defending together has to Withdraw/stand-fast as a group - don't recall if there is a Q&A to that effect and/or if it is spelled out in the rules.

 

[Vinnie]

I believe the created leader is not Berserk, but since the Berserk unit can't Withdraw, I don't think the leader can either. IIRC, a group of units attacking/defending together has to Withdraw/stand-fast as a group - don't recall if there is a Q&A to that effect and/or if it is spelled out in the rules.

I'm pretty sure that you can withdraw part of a group of attacking units and to different locations it's just they all withdraw or stay at the same time.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I'm pretty sure that you can withdraw part of a group of attacking units and to different locations it's just they all withdraw or stay at the same time.

I am not sure a leader that is attacking/defending together with a MMC can withdraw and the MMC does not. Think I remember a Q&A about that.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Here is the Q&A I was vaguely recalling.

A11.21
A11.21 says: “If a unit withdraws into a concealed enemy’s (not Dummy) Location it is eliminated automatically...” when does
that elimination take place relative to the withdrawal of any other units? For example, may a 9-2, 548, 467 stack have the 467
withdraw first to see if the destination contains a real enemy unit? Then if no enemy is present could the 9-2 548 then decide to
join the 467 or must they withdraw to another destination location? If the 467 is eliminated may the 9-2 548 elect not to withdraw
at all? Or withdraw to another destination?
A. The 4-6-7 can withdraw first and perhaps be eliminated. The 9-2 and 548 can then withdraw to the same or a different
Location, but they must withdraw. Assuming the 9-2 is defending with the 548, they must withdraw together.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Although I guess that Q&A might only apply when the do a "normal" Withdrawal - not when done via Ambush/Infiltration.

 

[Vinnie]

I've sent a request for official answer. I included a question of whether the leader coukd withdraw if he was not berserk. Not certain which way it should go.

 

[sdennis]

I thought you could always decline to defend with a MMC and take your changes and therefore be able to withdraw alone right?
Can a beserk MMC "cover" a SMC withdrawel?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I thought you could always decline to defend with a MMC and take your changes and therefore be able to withdraw alone right?
Can a beserk MMC "cover" a SMC withdrawel?

If the SMC were present from the start, then yes. In this case the berserk generated the SMC by rolling a 1,1.

 

[sdennis]

OK I misinterpreted the OP. Can he withdraw on the 1,1 but since he didn't he could have withdrawn for sure on the subsequent CC if choosing to defend alone

 

[Vinnie]

1. Does my berserk unit create a leader.
2. Is that leader also berserk.
3. My my berserk units withdraw.
4. If the leader is not berserk, may the leader withdraw.

1. Yes
2. No.
3. Never (A11.2).
4. No; it can only withdraw if the unit that created it withdraws. But it cannot use leadership DRM for berserker.

....Perry
MMP

 

[Vinnie]

OK I misinterpreted the OP. Can he withdraw on the 1,1 but since he didn't he could have withdrawn for sure on the subsequent CC if choosing to defend alone

He can't defend alone since he does not exist until after the attacks...

 

[Justiciar]

Although I guess that Q&A might only apply when the do a "normal" Withdrawal - not when done via Ambush/Infiltration.

Yes, I was wondering that myself as in the Perry Sez section I asked why #4 was ruled No...when the question was about a DR 2 in CC, not about a stated "withdraw attempt" under normal CC...A11.22 would seem to allow withdraw of the SMC and the 'creating' MMC staying.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Yes, I was wondering that myself as in the Perry Sez section I asked why #4 was ruled No...when the question was about a DR 2 in CC, not about a stated "withdraw attempt" under normal CC...A11.22 would seem to allow withdraw of the SMC and the 'creating' MMC staying.

I guess since the SMC and the MMC that created it are (after the fact) attacking/defending together, they could only Withdraw it both do/can in this situation as well.

 

[Justiciar]

But A11.22 does not provide any limitation on who can withdraw...except the "provided it has not already been eliminated/capture/pinned"....it even goes on to say "any Infantry/Cavalry unit that..."

 

[Vinnie]

A CC attack cannot single out one or more SMC to attack unless the SMC(s) attack(s) without an MMC, or they are attempting to withdraw (or conversely, to stand) without an accompanying MMC. Otherwise, the smallest increment which can be the subject of a single CC attack is a single MMC (plus any SMC stacked directly above it).

I think this means the leader who foes not attack alone cannot withdraw unless the MMS he attacks with also withdraws. Since, in this case the mmc is berserk and cannot withdraw, the leader cannot withdraw.
If I'd targeted everyone, I'd no longer be berserk and have been able to withdraw both.