AREA : a small info

[Michael R]

When CASLO uses Player Record Sheets, the player must turn in his sheet after each round in order to be matched for the following round. This yields 100% compliance.

 

[Justiciar]

The rationale for the decision was related to competitive vs. non-competitive game. The reason was practical-->we got sick of trying to get players to complete PISS sheets. We had a remarkable level of non-compliance and we got sick of acting like parents nagging players for their homework. Also, when we did get them collected we had to deal with trying to interpret some REALLY bad hand writing.

Since we kept track of all games in the brackets it was just natural to report them--we had the players, sides, balance (if any), and scenario name.

But if you handed in PISS sheets from "other" games would you as TD have submitted these is the real question.

If a player does not fill out sheets fine that is on them.

But if a player goes out in round 1, plays 4 other games (non-mini) and completes the PISS and passes it in, those games should go on his record. He is making the effort to show his W-L record at a sanctioned event. This is the whole point.

 

[Aaron Cleavin]

But if you handed in PISS sheets from "other" games would you as TD have submitted these is the real question.

If a player does not fill out sheets fine that is on them.

But if a player goes out in round 1, plays 4 other games (non-mini) and completes the PISS and passes it in, those games should go on his record. He is making the effort to show his W-L record at a sanctioned event. This is the whole point.

Not sure we have a sanctioning authority though ;-)

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Not sure we have a sanctioning authority though ;-)

We declare the "Malaya Madmen 2019" a sanctioned event!!!

 

[Justiciar]

Not sure we have a sanctioning authority though ;-)

This is exactly why it is becoming an elitist club, with an even more elite class called the TD. See upstream my deep dislike of this "only TD's worthy" approach to get games "counted". It is so wrong, in so many ways.

 

[von Marwitz]

The rationale for the decision was related to competitive vs. non-competitive game. The reason was practical-->we got sick of trying to get players to complete PISS sheets. We had a remarkable level of non-compliance and we got sick of acting like parents nagging players for their homework. Also, when we did get them collected we had to deal with trying to interpret some REALLY bad hand writing.

Since we kept track of all games in the brackets it was just natural to report them--we had the players, sides, balance (if any), and scenario name.

Lo and behold!

This is exactly what was the difficulty as I was told by the late Christian Koppmeyer, founder of Grenadier. Although he did have the names of the opponents (as he did the pairings), he had trouble deciphering some of the slips and having players deliver them to him completed.

von Marwitz

 

[Eagle4ty]

Could one in clear conscience accept the previous rankings as there is a strong possibility that some if not many of the earlier inputs were from non-tournament games or perhaps some ALSOK type games where one simply gets together with an old buddy to play a scenario that may or may not have been in "competitive" realm?

Who's to say a playing isn't competitive? Our monthly TCASL (Twin Cities ASL - Mnpls/St. Paul, MN) get together isn't a tournament per-se, but I would be willing to bet the games are quite competitive and usually the guys switch opponents for their next match dependent upon winner/loser status of the first game. Why should a player feel they re not allowed to post these games even though they beat say the winner of two recently "sanctioned" tournaments? Seems to me it should be an all or nothing proposition, get rid of the elitist crap notion. If someone wants to pad his record, so what? He goes to a tournament where he's not known, gets blown out of the water on the 1st round and it's down to his normal level of play after that. How many tournaments could he appear in where no one is aware of his level of play? If he doesn't attend tournaments, who cares what his ranking is other than himself.

 

[ecz]

Could one in clear conscience accept the previous rankings as there is a strong possibility that some if not many of the earlier inputs were from non-tournament games or perhaps some ALSOK type games where one simply gets together with an old buddy to play a scenario that may or may not have been in "competitive" realm?

I'm not an AREA/APCR sponsor and I have no interest to drive in any particulary direction the thing. I only give my informed opinion.
having this in mind I think that Bruno accepted during years only results from known and verified tournaments and or from known TDs.
All results in the Bruno's AREA are under the title of a tournament. I dare to say that almost 100% of the data there are real ( unless an error exists in the original source).
About ASLOK I'm open to accept any game played there as a "tounament game" given the special contest and format of the event. The same could be not true for friendly games played at other tournaments that remains friendly games not suitable for AREA/APCR.

 

[Justiciar]

I'm not an AREA/APCR sponsor and I have no interest to drive in any particulary direction the thing. I only give my informed opinion.
having this in mind I think that Bruno accepted during years only results from known and verified tournaments and or from known TDs.
All results in the Bruno's AREA are under the title of a tournament. I dare to say that almost 100% of the data there are real ( unless an error exists in the original source).
About ASLOK I'm open to accept any game played there as a "tounament game" given the special contest and format of the event. The same could be not true for friendly games played at other tournaments that remains friendly games not suitable for AREA/APCR.

You are incorrect, as I have mentioned before.

1) Bruno accepted results from non-TD. As I posted before all my results from ASLOK and WO were submitted by me to him. He never batted an eye or doubted me. It is a self checking system if I posted a game that was false the other player could report "hey I never played that guy."

1a) ASL players are not cheaters. I know of only one...Ron "Burgler."

2) Some of my games at ASLOK (50% +/-) were mini, some were "friendly" but competitive games (50% +/-).

3) The same special contest aspect applies to Winter Offensive, where related to 2 above I have come in 3rd and 4th, but most of my games are just "Competitive" but not aimed at a mini-win nor a WO title.

4) JUST FYI: I never reported play tests games that have occurred at the above.

5) Get over* the idea that a game by seeded player 12 vs. seeded player 17 ONLY counts as a match for ROAR. It is wrong in so many ways I can't begin to count them. Any game at any of the well known and long standings tournaments including "special contests' like ASLOK/WO should count for AREA, whether the game is seeded or is a sidebar match up. Stop trying to create an elite system that benefits only those that can make the non-special contest events, and further more only play at these for 'the trophy'. Any game at those events is valid material for a rating slot.

6) Any player who attended such an event is "qualified" to report their playings. To suggest otherwise is to call every ASLer who is not a TD out there a cheater. Is that your position Enrico? You are better than I am b/c your have a little badge on that says "TD" Really? I don't think so. Therefore, any one who attended the proper event can report their playings for that event. They should be reported in the format the new admin. sets up if the information can only be entered by the admin (which is fine). If the system will be like ROAR then you just follow the automated guidelines for the new AREA entry.

 

[Eagle4ty]

It's my guess that if you seed your tournament as a slave to AREA/or whatever-you-want-to-call-it, your tournament results will be a slave to that system and reflect results that will only mirror the system, albeit flawed in any respect. Just say'n.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I'm not an AREA/APCR sponsor and I have no interest to drive in any particulary direction the thing. I only give my informed opinion.
having this in mind I think that Bruno accepted during years only results from known and verified tournaments and or from known TDs.
All results in the Bruno's AREA are under the title of a tournament. I dare to say that almost 100% of the data there are real ( unless an error exists in the original source).
About ASLOK I'm open to accept any game played there as a "tounament game" given the special contest and format of the event. The same could be not true for friendly games played at other tournaments that remains friendly games not suitable for AREA/APCR.

I haven't met an ASL'r who's a cheat either but...

He's been taking results from the tournaments in Asia .. we are just starting off and ours ain't "known" and who's been doing the verifying?

He's been taking results from TDs (amongst them - me) and I can tell you - I ain't "known".

This is absolutely not to discredit all the great work that Bruno did .. I am just saying the whole "construct" from which you speak might not be as much of an establishment than you think it is.

Rgds Jack

 

[Justiciar]

I haven't met an ASL'r who's a cheat either but...

He's been taking results from the tournaments in Asia .. we are just starting off and ours ain't "known" and who's been doing the verifying?

He's been taking results from TDs (amongst them - me) and I can tell you - I ain't "known".

This is absolutely not to discredit all the great work that Bruno did .. I am just saying the whole "construct" from which you speak might not be as much of an establishment than you think it is.

Rgds Jack

You are known...having been part of the origins of the tourney scene out your way as it moves venue but is the same tourney... As is the tourney you help so much with...

He needs to get over the only "seeded" games only = AREA.

AREA is = any game at a tourney (tourney can be codified if need be, but we know it is not the get together in Brackin's Basement Bash which is 20 year running...but is your event, as is Lille, and Grenadier and ASO, and ASLOK and WO).

Without that is all an elite campers event.

 

[Michael R]

Just for everyone's information, Bruno has accepted Nor'Easter results and I believe that they do not "seed" their tournament. Pairings for the first round are pre-arranged or not, as suits the players.

 

[Justiciar]

Just for everyone's information, Bruno has accepted Nor'Easter results and I believe that they do not "seed" their tournament. Pairings for the first round are pre-arranged or not, as suits the players.

Thank you Michael.

I take by your "...has accepted N'E result and..." means ANY result from that tourney no matter how it came to be was accepted by Bruno. Also so Enrico and other like mined close-cell thinkers out there can see that that tourney was not seeded means..."it is games at recognized events that make for an AREA result not a seeded game AT a recognized tourney."

Once again I have no issue with the concept of "tourney play" ( tourneys as agreed by the collective BORG ASL think) generating AREA...but "play" is defined as any set or arranged (i.e. open play) match at a tourney [EXC; PT NA].

 

[boylermaker]

He's been taking results from the tournaments in Asia .. we are just starting off and ours ain't "known" and who's been doing the verifying?

Jack, as far as I can tell, only you and Andy are actually concerned with the "verification" issue, and neither of you think it matters, so I don't know why it keeps coming up. Has anyone proposed that your tournament shouldn't count for ACPR when it comes on line? Are there tournaments that were used in AREA that you think shouldn't have been?

My reading of this thread is that Enrico et al. want to make sure that all of the playings from a tournament are submitted. (I should note that this is also my opinion, and that it is kind of a no brainer for someone who collects and analyzes data for a living; but I also don't go to tournaments, so the ranking system doesn't really matter to me). The person most likely to be in possession of all of the results, and to have the organizational gumption to go about submitting them, is probably the TD, but so far I think literally everyone on this thread supports the idea that somebody/anybody else can submit all the results if they have all of them. Enrico and others should feel free to correct me if I've mischaracterized their views.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Jack, as far as I can tell, only you and Andy are actually concerned with the "verification" issue, and neither of you think it matters, so I don't know why it keeps coming up. Has anyone proposed that your tournament shouldn't count for ACPR when it comes on line? Are there tournaments that were used in AREA that you think shouldn't have been?

My reading of this thread is that Enrico et al. want to make sure that all of the playings from a tournament are submitted. (I should note that this is also my opinion, and that it is kind of a no brainer for someone who collects and analyzes data for a living; but I also don't go to tournaments, so the ranking system doesn't really matter to me). The person most likely to be in possession of all of the results, and to have the organizational gumption to go about submitting them, is probably the TD, but so far I think literally everyone on this thread supports the idea that somebody/anybody else can submit all the results if they have all of them. Enrico and others should feel free to correct me if I've mischaracterized their views.

Read me wrong. I ain't concerned at all (actually - VERY wrong .. but all good) - because there really is NO "verification". Hence I am not sure why there's an orientation towards limiting entries to TDs alone.

I think everyone should be allowed to submit results.

 

[ecz]

my answers follow in bold-italic, I hope it's clear enough

You are incorrect, as I have mentioned before.

1) Bruno accepted results from non-TD. As I posted before all my results from ASLOK and WO were submitted by me to him. He never batted an eye or doubted me. It is a self checking system if I posted a game that was false the other player could report "hey I never played that guy."

Good, I suppose the ASLOK TD never asked to Bruno to NOT accept results coming from other sources or sent himself the results, thus it's like he tacitly gave you the permission. Well done. I would have done the same.

1a) ASL players are not cheaters. I know of only one...Ron "Burgler."

agreed, but I don't even know one. It seems that you love this affermation since you keep to repeat it, but it seems a little out of contest here since nobody disagrees

2) Some of my games at ASLOK (50% +/-) were mini, some were "friendly" but competitive games (50% +/-).

"friendly but competitive games" is an interesting new gender of games. It would deserve a new thread and perheps a new "AREA/APCR" in fact it is not among the categories of the old AREA. From the AREA rules:

• Games are taken into account for AREA purposes if and only if they have been played as part of a tournament
• All games played during a tournament/event, even friendly games, can be reported for the purposes of displaying them in the summary page of that tournament/event. But only competitive games will intervene in the AREA computation.

Thus according Bruno's guidelines only "competitive" games that are at the same time "tournament" games should be included. If you (or someone else) sent to Bruno "friendly but competitive games" not part of a tournament they were added by mistake. Hence it's better that the TD personally stays in contact with the AREA/APCR keeper and takes care of the transmission of the data


3) The same special contest aspect applies to Winter Offensive, where related to 2 above I have come in 3rd and 4th, but most of my games are just "Competitive" but not aimed at a mini-win nor a WO title.

This is your valuable opinion, that it's worth exactly as mine. That could be different.

4) JUST FYI: I never reported play tests games that have occurred at the above.
good, and nor me. But, again, the new AREA/APCR keeper could have different opinion about this.

5) Get over* the idea that a game by seeded player 12 vs. seeded player 17 ONLY counts as a match for ROAR. It is wrong in so many ways I can't begin to count them. Any game at any of the well known and long standings tournaments including "special contests' like ASLOK/WO should count for AREA, whether the game is seeded or is a sidebar match up. Stop trying to create an elite system that benefits only those that can make the non-special contest events, and further more only play at these for 'the trophy'. Any game at those events is valid material for a rating slot.

Not sure to have understood what you say (my fault not being that good with English). But please note once forever I do not want to create anything, in fact I'm out from any new AREA/APCR managment/creation process. I'm just trying to give my suggestions (more or less as you do) that, causally, overlap with the old AREA philosopy. Again from the AREA site:

• TDs play a special and key role in this system : I will rely on their judgment as far as possible.

6) Any player who attended such an event is "qualified" to report their playings. To suggest otherwise is to call every ASLer who is not a TD out there a cheater. Is that your position Enrico? You are better than I am b/c your have a little badge on that says "TD" Really? I don't think so. Therefore, any one who attended the proper event can report their playings for that event. They should be reported in the format the new admin. sets up if the information can only be entered by the admin (which is fine). If the system will be like ROAR then you just follow the automated guidelines for the new AREA entry.

my poor English probably prevents you understanding of my position. Hope others will have more luck.
I have widely said that acting as AREA/APCR keeper I would accept results preferably from the TDs only (unless the TD is too busy or lazy), as Bruno did and wrote in his site. This is desirable for so many reasons that it's too long to explain (and none having to do with cheat), but anyone handling games data coming from hundreds of players can easily understand what I mean . But once more this is just my (informed) opinion and who 'll take Bruno's place will decide for the best.

 

[ecz]

Jack, as far as I can tell, only you and Andy are actually concerned with the "verification" issue, and neither of you think it matters, so I don't know why it keeps coming up. Has anyone proposed that your tournament shouldn't count for ACPR when it comes on line? Are there tournaments that were used in AREA that you think shouldn't have been?

My reading of this thread is that Enrico et al. want to make sure that all of the playings from a tournament are submitted. (I should note that this is also my opinion, and that it is kind of a no brainer for someone who collects and analyzes data for a living; but I also don't go to tournaments, so the ranking system doesn't really matter to me). The person most likely to be in possession of all of the results, and to have the organizational gumption to go about submitting them, is probably the TD, but so far I think literally everyone on this thread supports the idea that somebody/anybody else can submit all the results if they have all of them. Enrico and others should feel free to correct me if I've mischaracterized their views.

Exactly true

 

[Justiciar]

Jack, as far as I can tell, only you and Andy are actually concerned with the "verification" issue, and neither of you think it matters, so I don't know why it keeps coming up. Has anyone proposed that your tournament shouldn't count for ACPR when it comes on line? Are there tournaments that were used in AREA that you think shouldn't have been?

My reading of this thread is that Enrico et al. want to make sure that all of the playings from a tournament are submitted. (I should note that this is also my opinion, and that it is kind of a no brainer for someone who collects and analyzes data for a living; but I also don't go to tournaments, so the ranking system doesn't really matter to me). The person most likely to be in possession of all of the results, and to have the organizational gumption to go about submitting them, is probably the TD, but so far I think literally everyone on this thread supports the idea that somebody/anybody else can submit all the results if they have all of them. Enrico and others should feel free to correct me if I've mischaracterized their views.

No you are reading me wrong to a degree. What I am against is that only TD are the form of verification. I believe any ASLer is "worthy" of submitting data.

I believe any one can enter a game, so long as it is from a "tourney" this whether the game was for a trophy or just a side bar match.

I am okay with Aaron's sub-routine whereby all games can be seen and logged but an AREA rating only comes from tourney play.

 

[Justiciar]

Enrico,

No you are missing the vital point. "TD's are not more special" Anybody can submit a result from a sanctioned tournament. The person called "TD" is NOT the only qualified candidate to submit such a result. That TD's are special for running the tournament, and making rules calls, and matching people up, and they myriad of other things they do, yes they are. But NOT special as regards submitting results.

Second you also fail to see that by only giving credit for AREA to seeded player Y vs. seeded player X in Round 2 type game, vs. knocked out player A vs. knocked out player B in a friendly game at the tournament, you are denying players A & B a legitimate chance for an AREA chit. Your argument is some how a seeded game is more valid than a non-seeded game. That view is wrong. Players are not rolling over, or trying less just because the game is not played in a "Round".

Further we have it not only from Michael Rodgers that Bruno accepted "non-seeded" games from tournaments, but we have that from other myself included. I would be very surprised if those PIS sheets that Philippe delivered to Bruno have only GROFAZ, Mini or WC on them, I highly suspect that they have open play games too. Guys do not stop recording results simply b/c it is not a trophy event. This is a separate point from those not interested in filling out their PIS altogether b/c they are lazy or tired or whatever.

AREA = game at tourney.