Placing single OB-designated "?" during setup

Tater

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Ahhh, gottcha. Agree, why?, other than the reason in the OP it seems pointless.
Right, but I wouldn't oppose an errata/change that eliminated the possibility all together. Writing a good SSR is probably hard enough without having to find every little esoteric rule (EX: definition of unit) that one might screw up.
 

EJ1

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Hi all, if I follow correctly, is this acceptable?

One dummy counter beneath one or more real units beneath one concealment counter.
I have been playing that a dummy counter requires a dummy counter immediately above it, followed maybe with units, and if the units above are concealed, then the whole stack topped with a concealment counter, for a total of three “?” counters. And, if the Location contains only one dummy counter, then it would still need a second dummy counter above it.

So, if a Location contains a dummy counter, then, done correctly, the minimum number of “?” counters in the Location is two, not three, and the second “?” counter is actually a concealment counter - not one of my precious OOB dummy counters.

If I had been playing it wrong, I think it comes from my practice of placing my dummy units first, then real units on top, then concealing the stack. Oh, the new possibilities.

Thanks
 

jrv

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Hi all, if I follow correctly, is this acceptable?



I have been playing that a dummy counter requires a dummy counter immediately above it, followed maybe with units, and if the units above are concealed, then the whole stack topped with a concealment counter, for a total of three “?” counters. And, if the Location contains only one dummy counter, then it would still need a second dummy counter above it.

So, if a Location contains a dummy counter, then, done correctly, the minimum number of “?” counters in the Location is two, not three, and the second “?” counter is actually a concealment counter - not one of my precious OOB dummy counters.

If I had been playing it wrong, I think it comes from my practice of placing my dummy units first, then real units on top, then concealing the stack. Oh, the new possibilities.
I am having trouble following how your practice works.

Although the rules do not use the terms formally, I believe "?" counters are best understood as being of two kinds. The top-most "?" is a concealment counter. A concealment counter has to be placed on top of other units, real or dummy. A "?" counter that is not the top-most "?" counter is a dummy counter.

When you are setting up, you can use OB-given "?" counters as concealment counters and/or dummy counters. When you later place "free" concealment counters, the free concealment counters may not be placed on any stack that has an OB-given "?" counter.

As an example, if you have three hexes that are concealment terrain, one with nothing in it, one with a 4-4-7 in it and one with a 4-6-7 in it, you could place one OB-given concealment counter on one or more dummy counters in the empty hex and one OB-given concealment counter and zero or more dummy counters on the 4-4-7. Assuming you did both and left the 4-6-7 unconcealed, when it came time to place free concealment counters you could place a free concealment counter on the 4-6-7 (assuming it was otherwise allowed) but not on the stack in the empty hex nor on the stack in the 4-4-7's hex.

As a shortcut, a "?" that was a concealment counter may never become a dummy, and a dummy "?" may never become a concealment counter.

JR
 

EJ1

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I am having trouble following how your practice works...

JR
Thanks JR, Is your explanation dependent on my opponent and I both setting up on board, or does it change if I set up on board while my opponent sets up completely off board? Cheers
 

Philippe D.

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Thanks JR, Is your explanation dependent on my opponent and I both setting up on board, or does it change if I set up on board while my opponent sets up completely off board? Cheers
His explanation remains correct, but if only one side sets up on board, all its units will be concealed; but the accounting for "concealment" counters has to follow special steps:
  • a stack that contains only real units, costs no OB-given "?" (the concealment counter is "free")
  • a stack that contains only dummies, or dummies and real units, will cost one OB-given "?" per dummy counter, plus the top "?" counter - that one is "not free")
This is because the proper order of doing things would be: 1/ place all your OB (including OB-given "?", possibly making up dummy stacks), then, 2/ conceal every real unit. When concealing a real unit, you don't simply add a concealment counter on top of it: if there is already a concealment counter in the stack (as in, if it contains dummies, at this point), you just move the concealment counter to the top of the stack.
 

jrv

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Thanks JR, Is your explanation dependent on my opponent and I both setting up on board, or does it change if I set up on board while my opponent sets up completely off board? Cheers
The only difference would be that if he sets up on board, he gets to look at (but not touch/inspect) your set up before you place the free concealment counters. Effectively he can see the top counter¹ of your unconcealed stacks but not the rest. If he does not set up on board you can place the free concealment counters before he can see the board.

¹Some information counters can be lifted.

JR
 

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When concealing a real unit, you don't simply add a concealment counter on top of it: if there is already a concealment counter in the stack (as in, if it contains dummies, at this point), you just move the concealment counter to the top of the stack.
What would be the point of that? Your opponent would know immediately that it is a dummy counter
 

Philippe D.

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We are talking of things you do before your opponent can look at the board. Once the setup is complete and he can look, all stacks are concealed and indistinguishable from each other.
 

EJ1

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A12.11

“...If a scenario allocates a number of "?" available for setup at the start of the scenario, those "?" can be placed atop each other to act as Dummies—thus giving the mistaken impression of a stack of real counters beneath a "?" but a single such counter cannot be placed beneath unconcealed units.“

Given that SSRs often allow units to setup concealed if in concealment terrain, I see that one dummy counter may be placed beneath one or more real units providing that the stack is capped with a concealment counter.

To this point, I don’t see that an OOB dummy counter must be placed immediately above another dummy counter. I think the minimum requirement is that at setup, before one’s opponent sees the board, a lone dummy counter must have a “?” above it, either immediately above it or capping the whole stack.

Thoughts?
 

Larry

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A12.11

“...If a scenario allocates a number of "?" available for setup at the start of the scenario, those "?" can be placed atop each other to act as Dummies—thus giving the mistaken impression of a stack of real counters beneath a "?" but a single such counter cannot be placed beneath unconcealed units.“

Given that SSRs often allow units to setup concealed if in concealment terrain, I see that one dummy counter may be placed beneath one or more real units providing that the stack is capped with a concealment counter.

To this point, I don’t see that an OOB dummy counter must be placed immediately above another dummy counter. I think the minimum requirement is that at setup, before one’s opponent sees the board, a lone dummy counter must have a “?” above it, either immediately above it or capping the whole stack.

Thoughts?

A12.12 Therefore, if one side begins with no forces on board, the other side will be able to place “?” on all of its non-Dummy units after placing those units (before the opponent may look at the board).
If you put a concealment counter in a stack, you cannot place a non-ob concealment counter on top of the stack. To do so would to put a concealment counter on a dummy stack because you have a dummy in the stack.
 
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