Snoohiewoofer and a 12

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,444
Reaction score
3,387
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I managed to get some brave doughboys next to a panther to go into CC with it. No smbush (we were concealed but slthough the hex had a hedge, i think we lost concealment when we advanced in) and we sniffed our attack. His reply was in the form of HE grenades out those funky tubes on the turret that no one not born in Munich can pronounce correctly.
His roll was 12.

Is this a CC attack that would allow my guys to withdraw? We plsyed it as yes but coukd find nothing definitive.

11.22 INFILTRATION: The simultaneous nature of CC is momentarily suspended following an Original CC DR of 2/12. Provided it has not already been eliminated/captured/pinned, any Infantry/Cavalry unit which rolls an Original 2 CC DR may withdraw from CC/Melee immediately thereafter in the same CCPh without being attacked, even if it did not eliminate the defenders (see also Field Promotions; 18.12). Any Infantry/Cavalry unit(s) attacked by an Original 12 CC DR may likewise withdraw from CC immediately thereafter, assuming it has not been eliminated by that 12 CC DR.


11.622 CLOSE DEFENSE WEAPON SYSTEM: Beginning in July 1944, certain German AFV are equipped with a close defense anti-personnel projector (Nahverteidigungswaffe) in their turret roof. It can be used to make a HE attack on the IFT if the AFV is BU, but only during the CCPh after the AFV or its Personnel Escort has been attacked in that CCPh (11.31) [EXC: an AFV may fire a Nahverteidigungswaffe before being attacked if it qualifies as the Ambusher; 11.4].16 An AFV with this capability is identified by the symbol "sN" on the back of its counter. If fired (see D13.3), it must attack all unarmored units in its Location (including friendly Personnel/Vulnerable PRC/unarmored vehicle) with 16 factors on the IFT. A Close Defense Weapon System attack cannot be combined with any other form of FP. No To Hit DR is necessary, but if the Original IFT DR is > its Usage Number there is no effect (see D13.34). Despite the use of the IFT, TEM/SMOKE/other LOS Hindrances never apply to the resolution of a CC attack
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,918
Reaction score
5,102
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
However, A11.62 does say that a close defense weapon is making a CC attack and A11.22 does only say a CC DR (doesn't differentiate that it has to be on the CC Ratio Table or just an attack DR in CC). Some pretty loose definitions here, but I lean towards it's a DR in CC therefore a CC DR. Don't count on it though, my batting average is pretty low.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,444
Reaction score
3,387
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
You both neatly encapsulate our thinking last night.
It stems from the question of is it a CC DR? I think it is a good candidate for a Perry Sez. Is any attack made during the CCPh a CC DR? Does it have to be one made on the CC table?

Can anyone think of any other attacks that get made in the CCPh that might fall under this sort of problem? I think you can only create DC heroes during movement so they don't lay the DC in CC.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
You both neatly encapsulate our thinking last night.
It stems from the question of is it a CC DR? I think it is a good candidate for a Perry Sez. Is any attack made during the CCPh a CC DR? Does it have to be one made on the CC table?

Can anyone think of any other attacks that get made in the CCPh that might fall under this sort of problem? I think you can only create DC heroes during movement so they don't lay the DC in CC.
Goliaths can be blown up in the CCPh, I believe.

JR
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,376
Reaction score
10,269
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
The common sense approach [Whhooooah... ?] would seem to indicate that Withdrawal should be ok. That's how I would play it.

von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,801
Reaction score
7,233
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
If it is considered a CC DR (even though A11.662+example only says IFT DR) then if would seems units friendly to the vehicle may also Withdraw, A11.22:
"...Any Infantry/Cavalry unit(s) attacked by an Original 12 CC DR may likewise withdraw from CC immediately thereafter, assuming it has not been eliminated by that 12 CC DR. .."

A11.622:
"...If fired (see D13.3), it must attack all unarmored units in its Location ..."

Somehow, I doubt that is the intention.....
 

Hemaelstrom

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
Messages
106
Reaction score
28
Country
llCongo
A11.13 assumes the existence of a relevant black Kill Number for a given CC DR, implying the intention that such a DR is always made with reference to the Close Combat Table.
 

MajorDomo

DM? Chuck H2O in his face
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
3,180
Reaction score
1,033
Location
Fluid
Country
llUnited States
The infitration withdrawal opinion would also appear to allow friendly units to withdraw.

Seems odd.

Rich
 

Carln0130

Forum Guru
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,996
Reaction score
2,620
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
Of course a 12 would be a no-shot, unless there’s an Sn12 out there that I’ve never seen.
Yeah, that was my thought too. If you fire a SN and it rolls a 12, did you really fire it? It is a usage DR so it didn't get used. I would think based on that, no infiltration.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,631
Reaction score
5,607
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Well, you would fire a Gun on a DR of 12. So there is good reason to argue the same for a sN.

von Marwitz
Isn't the sN# a Usage Number (cf. D3.1)?
When you roll for a smoke dispenser, rolling higher than its Usage Number means no use of the dispenser.
A11.622 ... if the Original IFT DR is > its Usage Number there is no effect
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,376
Reaction score
10,269
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Correct, it is a Usage DR.

But still you could argue, that on a 12, the thing you "use" gets stuck for a while or something funky like that happens. In the sense that you are actually "using" it but it isn't "working" properly for some reason.

von Marwitz
 

afgur

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
114
Reaction score
44
Location
Trussville, Al
First name
Alan
Country
llUnited States
last sentance of 11.622. Despite the use of the IFT, TEM/SMOKE/other LOS Hindrances never apply to the resolution of a CC attack

makes me think it is a cc attack but no effect seems to win out, but what do I know


Alan
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
last sentance of 11.622. Despite the use of the IFT, TEM/SMOKE/other LOS Hindrances never apply to the resolution of a CC attack

makes me think it is a cc attack but no effect seems to win out, but what do I know


Alan
But you only "attack" with the snoogie if you roll less than its usage DR...if DR > then no attack was actually made. Chasing tails are we...?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
But you only "attack" with the snoogie if you roll less than its usage DR...if DR > then no attack was actually made. Chasing tails are we...?
CC with vehicles is sequential and attacks alternate. If the sN fails its usage number, can the vehicle immediately use another CC weapon in this sequential attack (like it could use another ammo type if it didn't have special ammo), or is its sequential attack done and the enemy player now gets to make an attack?

JR
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
CC with vehicles is sequential and attacks alternate. If the sN fails its usage number, can the vehicle immediately use another CC weapon in this sequential attack (like it could use another ammo type if it didn't have special ammo), or is its sequential attack done and the enemy player now gets to make an attack?

JR
Sorry I don't understand your point...
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,631
Reaction score
5,607
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Sorry I don't understand your point...
His point is that, if a sN usage roll is > the sN#, it hasn't actually attacked.
Would that allow the vehicle to use another weapon (e.g. CMG) to attack, before opposing units attack - quite like when rolling > Depletion is considered notto have fired.
 
Top