Retain concealment after minimum move advance into close combat?

[FlatPackFred]

Played Got Milk today - great scenario and a tonic from house to house fighting in Stalingrad (also the subject of a good article in Journal 7 - although note that RR SSR state that bore sighting is not applicable).

One of my concealed squads advanced uphill, across barbed into close combat the Milk Factory with an unconcealed leader and unconcealed squad. This is a minimum move and hence the squad is marked with a CX system counter. Couldn't find any rule saying that a minimum move in the advance phase would lead to concealment loss - but didn't seem right as the squad couldn't have made this move using assault movement in the movement phase. My brother and I agreed that the squad would lose concealment.

Did we play this correctly?

Also if the squad had retained concealment would I have been entitled to the concealed unit Ambush modifier even though accompanyied by a leader and squad that were unconcealed?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Advance vs Difficult Terrain (A4.72) is, in itself, not a concealment-loss activity.

 

[jrv]

Minimum Move is during the MPh. It is concealment loss in most cases because it is not assault movement (but at night it might not be, for example). Advance vs. Difficult Terrain is a somewhat similar idea, but in fact the rules are very different. Using one to think about the other generally will not work out well. Advance is never concealment loss except into open ground (not at night). Non-assault movement is always concealment loss except at night.

JR

 

[FlatPackFred]

Thank you. I should have said Advance vs Difficult Terrain not Minimum move and thank you for the clear answer (even though it does seem a little odd).

Now that there is one concealed squad with one unconcealed squad and leader entering close combat in a building would they be eligible for the concealed DRM when attempting ambush?

 

[Vinnie]

Yes, each case of the modifier applies. Someone is concealed so the mod applies.

 

[zgrose]

Minimum Move is during the MPh. It is concealment loss in most cases because it is not assault movement (but at night it might not be, for example). Advance vs. Difficult Terrain is a somewhat similar idea, but in fact the rules are very different. Using one to think about the other generally will not work out well. Advance is never concealment loss except into open ground (not at night). Non-assault movement is always concealment loss except at night.

Non-assault movement [while in LOS] is always [usually] concealment loss except at night.

My first edit is often missed by beginners. The second edit is because it's a crazy game of exceptions (trenches and bocage off the top of my head).

 

[Eagle4ty]

Thank you. I should have said Advance vs Difficult Terrain not Minimum move and thank you for the clear answer (even though it does seem a little odd).

....

It is especially odd when one considers that ADVANCE is covered under the MOVEMENT (A4) rules as a sub-rule of that category. However, ADVANCE has been determined to not mean movement except when it is considered such (e.g. PP penalties-to a degree, Leader assistance, etc.). If during MOVEMENT one were to use all of its MF to execute a move in LOS of a GO/unbroken enemy unit within 16 hexes it couldn't use assault move and would lose concealment in most circumstances [EXC: Night] but if conducting an ADVANCE it could retain concealment for this "move". If I were the ruler of the universe, I would remove ADVANCE from the MOVEMENT rules altogether to avoid this conundrum of thought process or come to a common-sense approach that it is certainly movement. JMHO

 

[Tater]

Are the costs for hexside terrain also doubled when crossed into higher elevation?

I had always assumed it was but looking at A4.13 and A4.131 the rules seem to make a distinction...in hex terrain being "COT" for movement (A4.13) and hexside being a +x to "COT" (A4.131). Looking at the Hill rules it's says that "COT" is doubled...not to mention that hexside terrain is always at the lower elevation part of a "Crestline" hex (EXC: hillside wall/hedge).

 

[jrv]

Are the costs for hexside terrain also doubled when crossed into higher elevation?

I had always assumed it was but looking at A4.13 and A4.131 the rules seem to make a distinction...in hex terrain being "COT" for movement (A4.13) and hexside being a +x to "COT" (A4.131). Looking at the Hill rules it's says that "COT" is doubled...not to mention that hexside terrain is always at the lower elevation part of a "Crestline" hex (EXC: hillside wall/hedge).

Per B.2, the COT is "the normal MF/MP cost for entrance of a hex plus the movement cost of any Artificial Terrain therein." It then goes on to show by example that crossing a wall is an "added cost" and is not part of the COT. Therefore crossing a wall is not doubled while moving up a level as it is an "added cost."

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Per B.2, the COT is "the normal MF/MP cost for entrance of a hex plus the movement cost of any Artificial Terrain therein." It then goes on to show by example that crossing a wall is an "added cost" and is not part of the COT. Therefore crossing a wall is not doubled while moving up a level as it is an "added cost."

JR

Nor is Smoke.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

Nor is Smoke.

SMOKE is "artificial terrain" [B.9], and its cost is doubled while *moving* to a higher level (there is a specific example in B.2). SMOKE MF, however, do not count during the APh when determining whether an Advance is vs Difficult Terrain [A4.72].

One thing I just noticed is that *other* artificial terrain (AFV, wrecks, roadblocks) are also doubled when moving to a higher level and also count for determining Advance vs Difficult Terrain. This is not something I had noticed before, and I certainly have played this wrong.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

I stand corrected. But indeed now I remember. Only *advancing* won't double it.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

I stand corrected. But indeed now I remember. Only *advancing* won't double it.

For purposes of figuring when an Advance is vs Difficult Terrain, SMOKE counts for *zero MF* and not for regular or double MF. Again, during the APh only.

JR