CG III Red Barricades

STAVKA

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
831
Reaction score
553
Location
East Front
Country
llFinland
Order of Battle at the end of 26 Oct.

Red Army [ELR: 3] [SAN: 3]: 11 Ldr.
22 SWs
(3 HMG, 4 MMG, 4 LMG, 5 ATR, 4 Lt MTR, 2 MOL-P).
3 Guns (3 MTR 82mm).
43.5 Sq-eq (8 Elite, 26 First Line, 9.5 Conscripts).

Wehrmacht [ELR: 4] [SAN: 2]: 9 Ldr.
32 SWs
(3 HMG, 7 MMG, 10 LMG, 3 ATR, 3 Lt MTR, 2 FT, 4 DC).
3 Guns (INF 75mm, PaK 40, GrW 34).
3 AFVs (Pz IIIL, Pz IVF2, SPW 251/1).
46 Sq-eq (25 Elite, 21 First/Second Line).
 

wesvaughn

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
188
Reaction score
98
Location
West fork, Arkansas
Country
llUnited States
RED BARRICADES
Operation Hubertus 1 time
The Barrikady 85+ (13 different opponents)
Kampfgruppe Peiper
Clash at Stoumont 7 times (4 different opp)
The Bridge at Cheneux 13 times (5 different opp)
Decision at La Glieze 3 times (2 diff opp)
A Bridge too Far 6 times (4 different opp)
Pegasus Bridge 25+ (8 different opp)
Primasole Bridge 1 time
Operation Veritable 1 time
Valor of Guards CG IV 1 time (pro-Germ 80-20)
Interesting that you have Valor of the Guards (80-20) Pro German. ????
 

STAVKA

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
831
Reaction score
553
Location
East Front
Country
llFinland
Interesting that you have Valor of the Guards (80-20) Pro German. ????
There is an AAR to be found somewhere, my Russians troops diced my German opponent, killed about 30 German Officers in matter of days. But were still eradicated day 10-11.

But still, we want play it anymore due to several design concept/decison that I and 4 other Swedes had issues with.

To summarize the dozen issues we have with it into one word would be "overdesign".

The scenarios are fun, the CG not at all, the balance issue is secondary and can be easily solved. The design decisions not easy to solve and the map sucks anyway, nothing you would like to endure to much of (a scenario from time to time, no problem).
 

wesvaughn

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
188
Reaction score
98
Location
West fork, Arkansas
Country
llUnited States
There is an AAR to be found somewhere, my Russians troops diced my German opponent, killed about 30 German Officers in matter of days. But were still eradicated day 10-11.

But still, we want play it anymore due to several design concept/decison that I and 4 other Swedes had issues with.

To summarize the dozen issues we have with it into one word would be "overdesign".

The scenarios are fun, the CG not at all, the balance issue is secondary and can be easily solved. The design decisions not easy to solve and the map sucks anyway, nothing you would like to endure to much of (a scenario from time to time, no problem).
Thanks for the response Melvin. I've played several of the scenario's and the campaign game for the first 4 days with the Germans having a firm advantage,, the reason we quit. But,, I've had a couple good players tell me that they like the Russians in the campaign game. Just wanted to hear your take on the campaign. Wes
 

Gunner Scott

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,737
Reaction score
2,669
Location
Chicago, IL
Country
llUnited States
The Russians are a challenge to play in RB no doubt about that. HIP, OBA, the limited use of rockets, dug in tanks and fortifications can make a German players day very bad indeed. Burning down key MG perches is also very necessary to keep the Germans from gaining LOS advantages into the Russian Defense. I personally I think Bob and I use tank repair, Rubble is rally terrain and the 62nd army reinforcement group in our own campaign, all the other special rules seriously cripple the German attack or Russian defense.

Scott

Thanks for the response Melvin. I've played several of the scenario's and the campaign game for the first 4 days with the Germans having a firm advantage,, the reason we quit. But,, I've had a couple good players tell me that they like the Russians in the campaign game. Just wanted to hear your take on the campaign. Wes
 

Gunner Scott

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,737
Reaction score
2,669
Location
Chicago, IL
Country
llUnited States
Ah ok. Votg is an ok CG but can get monotonous after a while. Slogging through gutted building gets old fast and the conscripts are almost worthless except to stand in place and die. The ventry color codes are a real pian to keep track of and made my eyes bleed after awhile. I did redo the RG charts to make life easier for me if I ever played this ultra dedicated simulation again.
German RG chart rev.jpgRussian rg chart rev.jpg

I believe Wes & Melvin are discussing the VotG CG, not RB.

JR
 

Craig Benn

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
637
Reaction score
508
Location
Liverpool
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I think the big VOTG CG is probably 80-20 pro German. I played it twice against a strong opponent - won comfortably as the Germans, defeated as the Russians. The Germans get 6 extra support CPP when attacking and most Russian infantry is guards and more expensive than the landsers. The Russians get a one time +10 CPP bonus and two cheap rifle companies - once that's gone the German advantage keeps accruing with time. But I disagree about the overdesign - the CG rules are better than RB particularly the scope for night counterattacks. The map gutted buildings and all is more interesting than the factories - more variety IMO. Russians need cheaper infantry and/or free fortifications.
 

STAVKA

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
831
Reaction score
553
Location
East Front
Country
llFinland
Red Barricades have 24 pages of rules.
VotG have 34 pages - a sign of overdesign.

Could lay out why we think some design decisions are way out of line.
The first we notice without any efforts were the much better Leadership ratings for both sides and the increased leader density.
 

Gunner Scott

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,737
Reaction score
2,669
Location
Chicago, IL
Country
llUnited States
Over design seems to be the norm nowadays with most ASL stuff, thats why I think alot of people are playing older ASL stuff more and more.

Red Barricades have 24 pages of rules.
VotG have 34 pages - a sign of overdesign.

Could lay out why we think some design decisions are way out of line.
The first we notice without any efforts were the much better Leadership ratings for both sides and the increased leader density.
 

STAVKA

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
831
Reaction score
553
Location
East Front
Country
llFinland
But I disagree about the overdesign - the CG rules are better than RB particularly the scope for night counterattacks. The map gutted buildings and all is more interesting than the factories - more variety IMO.
The comparision of night battles are not fair, in the Red Barricades area the German conducted much larger scale night assaults than the Russians.
Still no one I have played with really enjoy this large scale CG Night scenarios.

The Gutted buildings are good but not the increased MF cost of one MF to 3 MF, makes no sense of reality check since a Gutted factory in Red Barricades still have a normal building entry cost of 2 MF, much more play value.

Another failed design decision of VotG, if I remember correctly is that the Train station changed hands several times, will never happen now, why?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Another failed design decision of VotG, if I remember correctly is that the Train station changed hands several times, will never happen now, why?
As I understand it the railway station #1 traded hands fourteen times in six hours (one VotG CG date, or possibly two). That would be tricky to do in VotG. You would probably have to write a CG just about that battle, each "date" being about a half-hour with alternating reinforcements, to get that to happen. Or you could come up with some over-designed rules about exhaustion and recovery, but if you figure it would take at least two-three ASL turns to take the station, you would need roughly twenty-eight to forty-two turns to get it work out correctly in ASL.

JR
 

boylermaker

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
581
Reaction score
526
Location
Virginia
Country
llUnited States
I'm interested in whether counting rules pages is a good way of getting at "overdesign". Of course, who knows what "overdesign" means?

But let's say this: how many pages worth of rules do you actually need to know while you are playing the scenario? This is the part that is actually costly in terms of brain power. Of course, you need a vague idea of how the refit phase works if you are going to try to encircle your enemy, etc, but you don't need to know any of the details while you are actually playing the scenario. Once the scenario is over, you can just go through the Refit Rules one by one and follow the instructions, so there isn't any cognitive overhead at all. Ditto with the initial OBs for the campaign games: you need to consult the rules at some point to draw the counters, but you never need to memorize or learn anything.

The only two CGs I have are VotG and FB, so maybe somebody can help. But once you exclude CG-setup-rules, refit phase rules, and footnotes, here the the number of rules pages you actually have to learn to play the CG:

Valor of the Guards: 13, including the pages from Red Barricades.
Festung Budapest: 17

What are these values for other campaign games? I.e., if you exclude starting OBs and RePh rules, how many pages does RB or whatever other HASL have.

For reference: Chapter A: 58 pages
Chapter B: 42 pages
Chapter C: 23 pages
Chapter D: 25 pages
Chapter E: 25 pages
Chapter G: About 44 pages (47 pages, but about 3 pages worth of DYO in there that doesn't add any cognitive load).
 

Ganjulama

Tuco B.P.J. Maria Ramirez
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
1,090
Location
Wilmington, NC
Country
llUnited States
Ah ok. Votg is an ok CG but can get monotonous after a while. Slogging through gutted building gets old fast and the conscripts are almost worthless except to stand in place and die. The ventry color codes are a real pian to keep track of and made my eyes bleed after awhile. I did redo the RG charts to make life easier for me if I ever played this ultra dedicated simulation again.
These are very helpful Scott thanks for posting.
 

Gunner Scott

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,737
Reaction score
2,669
Location
Chicago, IL
Country
llUnited States
Wow, Stalingrad looks nice and pristine compared to my campaign. Also looks like the Germans are going to win this one very soon. The Russians should have been burning as many buildings down as possible but it looks like they didnt.
 
Top