CCPh and Brokie Rules Questions

[TheSQLGuru]

Say you had a pair of German 468s in Melee with the dreaded 226 Russian Conscript HS. There is fire into the hex during this turn and the only effect is that one of the 468's breaks.

Questions:

1) Does the 468 get a DM counter as he breaks? At the start of the RtPh?

2) Can/Must the broken 468 rout during the RtPh (if so, assume valid location/path to get out safely).

3) During the CCPh, if the 226 chooses to attack both good order and broken 468s together (assuming the broken 468 cannot/does not rout), how would that play out? I came up with several possible permutations, but I cannot find in the rules how to isolate the definitively correct answer.

If you are interested in the discussions about this I first posted this as a Quiz of the Day over on the Advance Squad Leader Starter Kit Facebook group. Join up and give it a review.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

1) Does the 468 get a DM counter as he breaks? At the start of the RtPh?

Yes.

2) Can/Must the broken 468 rout during the RtPh (if so, assume valid location/path to get out safely).

No, it can't rout during the RtPh if in Melee, and Withdrawal is not an option in ASLSK, IIRC.

Any attacks vs the broken unit get a -2 DRM.

 

[TheSQLGuru]

I presume you mean at the moment the 468 broke, correct? There is an exception for getting a DM at the start of the RtPh when in Melee.

I now a CC attack vs the broken unit gets a -2 DRM. But the rule/QRDC doesn't say "and any units attacked with the broken unit" or some such. A similar case is the +1 CX IFT modifier applying to an entire fire group. That is explicitly spelled out, as is the +1 Ambush drm for being CX applying to all units' Ambush dr if there are any that are CX.

So the real meat of the situation is does this play out with a Random Selection or Mandatory applicability depending on the CC DR?

Here are the CC DR permutations as I see them. Including the -2 CC DRM for BOTH units:

DR NETDR Effect
2 0 KIA BOTH
3 1 KIA BOTH
4 2 KIA BOTH
5 3 CR (RS to determine which squad)
6+ NO EFFECT

If we include the -2 JUST FOR THE BROKEN 467, it gets very interesting. Note that the unbroken 468's roll against is just the DR straight up:

Brokie
DR NETDR Effect
2 0 KIA BOTH
3 1 Case A Below
4 2 KIA Broken 467
5 3 CR Broken 467
6+ NO EFFECT

Case A: A CC DR of 3 has split effects and is the difficult one. It is a CR on the 468 but a KIA on the broken 467. Three ways we could approach it: the worst effect happens, the least effect happens, and Randomly Select which unit gets its effect done to it.

 

[TheSQLGuru]

Well, that's disappointing! I went through the trouble to us Courier New font and space out the tables so the columns line up nicely and the dang forum software screwed it up!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The -2 DRM applies only to the broken unit - it does in full ASL, and I would be surprised if SK was intended to be different.

 

[jrv]

3.7: "Only unbroken units may attack, but even broken units defend, although they suffer a -2 DRM to CC attacks against them." It is not necessarily obvious if you don't know already, but the intention is that DRM that apply to some but not all attackers in one CC attack (which in ASLSK is just CX) applies against all of the targets, while DRM that apply to some but not all defenders (e.g. CX, broken) apply only to that defender. The final DR (the actual roll combined with all DRM) can be different for different defenders. For instance if two attackers, one of which is CX, combine to attack three defenders (one with no DRM, one CX, and one broken) the DRM will be +1 vs the first unit (CX), +0 vs the second (attacker CX balanced by defender CX) and -1 vs the third (+1 attacker CX, -2 defender broken). If the attackers did not attack together, the attacker CX DRM would apply to one but not the other.

JR

 

[TheSQLGuru]

3.7: "Only unbroken units may attack, but even broken units defend, although they suffer a -2 DRM to CC attacks against them." It is not necessarily obvious if you don't know already, but the intention is that DRM that apply to some but not all attackers in one CC attack (which in ASLSK is just CX) applies against all of the targets, while DRM that apply to some but not all defenders (e.g. CX, broken) apply only to that defender. The final DR (the actual roll combined with all DRM) can be different for different defenders. For instance if two attackers, one of which is CX, combine to attack three defenders (one with no DRM, one CX, and one broken) the DRM will be +1 vs the first unit (CX), +0 vs the second (attacker CX balanced by defender CX) and -1 vs the third (+1 attacker CX, -2 defender broken). If the attackers did not attack together, the attacker CX DRM would apply to one but not the other.

JR

So how do you handle my Case A above? i.e. where you attack both GO 468 and broken 467 with the 226 for a 1:4 and roll a 3 for your CC DR? That gets you a CR on the 468 and a KIA on the 467. In addition to the 3 ways I listed it could be played out, there is a fouth - execute BOTH effects.

What say you JR?

 

[jrv]

So how do you handle my Case A above? i.e. where you attack both GO 468 and broken 467 with the 226 for a 1:4 and roll a 3 for your CC DR? That gets you a CR on the 468 and a KIA on the 467. In addition to the 3 ways I listed it could be played out, there is a fouth - execute BOTH effects.

What say you JR?

This is not a different case for me. As I said, "The final DR (the actual roll combined with all DRM) can be different for different defenders." The final DR for the broken unit is a 1, while the final DR for the unbroken unit is a 3. As you say, the result is that the broken unit is eliminated while the unbroken unit is CR. Although 3.8 does mention final DRs, It is perhaps less clear than desirable that there can be multiple final DRs that apply to different defenders.

JR