A9.21 MG Covered Arc vs A8.3 SFF and A8.31 FPF

[Earl_8minus0]

Hello Team

Another day - Another Question (or two).

Lets finish up from yesterday and how to apply Residual Firepower to a hex and what we learned - applied.

The information counters are not part of this picture just want to see if what I did was more or less correct/legal.

I had 2 groups of Squads that were going to ByPass the woods in N5 that had Residual Fire in it - One group bypassed N5 along the N5/M5 hexside no issue there 2 -2 +1 = 2 -1.

The other group (question) due to size restrictions and not wanting to chance my luck again changed up the wording and now Bypassed O6 (the hex beside N5) along the O6/N5 hexside.

So while it is a legal move - does it get around both problems is the question.

Is the Group considered in O6 such that N5 is not over stacked and since I am Bypassing O6 I am not going to take the Residual in N5 even though I am on the O6/N5 hexside?

Again answer with Rule reference is preferred but if the major answers are the same we will attempt to find the answer and understand it and more importantly try to apply it next time.

Break

Now for today's topics question.

The Fire Group in K2 has fired North/West at P4 - Loss Rate of the MMG and CA is "FIXED" pointing that way - all per A9.21.

Reading A9.21 it all sounds so easy and even we could figure it out.

Than I started to move my Squads to the East and Moon Su wanting to keep me from getting 5 Squads off the board wants to keep using every trick/rule in his play book.

So now the Fire Group in K2 wants to fire at I2 - East of the position and more importantly the MMG's CA is not pointing in that direction.

So we now read A8.3 that talks about SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE (SFF) and that the Squad "Must" fire any MGs in their possession or "Forfeit" their use for the remainder of the Phase.

In other words it may use them or it may not and if not the MGs are not able to be used any longer during the turn.

Did we read that right - and as such only the Squad SFF?

What if I had another Good Order Squad up North and now moved them in the CA of the MMG - would it be allowed to fire in the CA previously established - or did the Squad/Fire Group also lose this ability to also Fire in this direction since it didn't fire them during SFF? ?

To make it even more complicated and as we know nothing is complicated in the English Edition of the Rule book what if the Sqd/MMG had Fired (if allowed) at the moving Squad at I2 could it now again swing back and resume firing to the North/East? ? ?

I survived and wanting to tie up even more of his Fire Groups move into J2 - Adjacent to the Fire Group in K2.

So now they get to FPF against me and A8.31 is almost but not the same as A8.3 in that now it talks about any possessed MGs "must be fired".

Which again raises the question of the MMG's CA being North/West and my Squad coming from the East is now facing what - Just the Squad again - or - In FPF now I have to face both the Sqd and MMG? ? ? ?

If both and again if I go back up North and move a Squad what direction is the MMG facing now?

NOTE: The shot up North would be based upon my Squad being Broken since it would have to be able to fire in that direction or would my even being Broken count as a closer target? ? ?

OK I attached a picture - asked a lot of I am sure stupid questions to the group - and it is an American Holiday (Happy Thanksgiving to Everyone) but hopefully the world of ASl has time to answer.

We stopped the game at the end of this movement as the importance of getting CA, SFF, and FPF right would play an important part in my getting another 3 guys set up to get off the board for the win.

I wanted to move guys from the Left and Right and back and tie up his MG's CA - but if that is not the case I am not sure of the purpose behind the rule and or how to apply it towards SFF/FPF and for the Moving side to use it to their benefit.

I am sure someone can help not only answer the question - but provide some tactical answer as well.

Later,

Earl

PS - Snow makes everything look better. . .

 

[Binchois]

This is a bit confusing, but I will attempt to discuss what I can understand from your post:

I had 2 groups of Squads that were going to ByPass the woods in N5 that had Residual Fire in it - One group bypassed N5 along the N5/M5 hexside no issue there 2 -2 +1 = 2 -1

I know this isn't your question, but if I understand correctly, you have an error here. A unit bypassing N5 is considered to be in Open Ground. Any hit against it would get the -1 for FFMO/FFNAM (-1 for each) but not the TEM of the bypassed terrain. The attack should have been 2FP minus 2. [Edit: Residual attacks would receive TEM but not FFMO...see following posts!]

Is the Group considered in O6 such that N5 is not over stacked and since I am Bypassing O6 I am not going to take the Residual in N5 even though I am on the O6/N5 hexside?

If I am fully understanding the situation, you are correct that a unit bypassing O6 would not be restricted by stacking from N5 nor affected by residual in N5.

The Fire Group in K2 has fired North/West at P4 - Loss Rate of the MMG and CA is "FIXED" pointing that way - all per A9.21.

So now the Fire Group in K2 wants to fire at I2 - East of the position and more importantly the MMG's CA is not pointing in that direction.

So we now read A8.3 that talks about SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE (SFF) and that the Squad "Must" fire any MGs in their possession or "Forfeit" their use for the remainder of the Phase.

Did we read that right - and as such only the Squad SFF?

Correct! The squad can still SFF within it's normal range and at the closest units only. I2 qualifies. However, this will forfeit further use of the MMG (barring FPF).

What if I had another Good Order Squad up North and now moved them in the CA of the MMG - would it be allowed to fire in the CA previously established - or did the Squad/Fire Group also lose this ability to also Fire in this direction since it didn't fire them during SFF?

If the squad hadn't SFFed, then the MMG could SFF as sustained fire (since it used it's ROF already). As cited, the squad's SFF attack forfeits the MMG for the rest of the Player Turn (barring FPF).

P.S. While I am often guilty of long posts, this one is a bit much to handle. Could you perhaps shorten these questions up next time? It would probably net you a faster and more thorough discussion (with more participants too). Cheers!

 

[jrv]

If I understand the residual attack against the bypass correctly, the in-hex TEM applies even though the unit was bypassing in the open ground part of the hex. Because TEM applies, FFMO does not. The attack is at two FP +1 TEM -1 FFNAM = two FP up zero.

JR

 

[clubby]

I know this isn't your question, but if I understand correctly, you have an error here. A unit bypassing N5 is considered to be in Open Ground. Any hit against it would get the -1 for FFMO/FFNAM (-1 for each) but not the TEM of the bypassed terrain. The attack should have been 2FP minus 2.

8.2 RESIDUAL FIREPOWER: When a unit is attacked by Defensive First Fire/Subsequent First Fire/FPF, the target Location in which the attack is resolved (even if in Bypass) is marked with a Residual FP counter equal to half (up to a maximum of 12 after adjustment as per 8.26; FRD) of the highest IFT FP column used for that attack. If the attack includes a To Kill DR vs a vehicle, Residual FP is created in the same manner [EXC: If AP (unless fired by a MG), ATR, APCR, or APDS was used, or if a Dud (C7.35) resulted, no Residual FP is created]. Thereafter, any unit entering (or expending MF/MP in) that same Location in the same MPh is attacked on the IFT with the FP represented by that Residual FP counter, a new IFT DR, and any applicable FFMO/FFNAM DRM. A unit expending MF/MP to leave a Location is not subject to Residual FP attack in the Location it is leaving. All non-hexside TEM and SMOKE/FFE-Hindrance DRM of the target Location apply to a Residual FP attack (even vs Bypassing units). Remove all Residual FP counters at the end of the MPh.

 

[clubby]

Yes, shorten up the post, make the questions clearer by numbering or bulleting them and by all means post pictures of your example as it will cut down the number of words needed immediately by 50%.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Hello Team

Another day - Another Question (or two).

Lets finish up from yesterday and how to apply Residual Firepower to a hex and what we learned - applied.

The information counters are not part of this picture just want to see if what I did was more or less correct/legal.

I had 2 groups of Squads that were going to ByPass the woods in N5 that had Residual Fire in it - One group bypassed N5 along the N5/M5 hexside no issue there 2 -2 +1 = 2 -1.

The other group (question) due to size restrictions and not wanting to chance my luck again changed up the wording and now Bypassed O6 (the hex beside N5) along the O6/N5 hexside.

So while it is a legal move - does it get around both problems is the question.

Is the Group considered in O6 such that N5 is not over stacked and since I am Bypassing O6 I am not going to take the Residual in N5 even though I am on the O6/N5 hexside?

Again answer with Rule reference is preferred but if the major answers are the same we will attempt to find the answer and understand it and more importantly try to apply it next time.

Break

Now for today's topics question.

The Fire Group in K2 has fired North/West at P4 - Loss Rate of the MMG and CA is "FIXED" pointing that way - all per A9.21.

Reading A9.21 it all sounds so easy and even we could figure it out.

Than I started to move my Squads to the East and Moon Su wanting to keep me from getting 5 Squads off the board wants to keep using every trick/rule in his play book.

So now the Fire Group in K2 wants to fire at I2 - East of the position and more importantly the MMG's CA is not pointing in that direction.

So we now read A8.3 that talks about SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE (SFF) and that the Squad "Must" fire any MGs in their possession or "Forfeit" their use for the remainder of the Phase.

In other words it may use them or it may not and if not the MGs are not able to be used any longer during the turn.

Did we read that right - and as such only the Squad SFF?

What if I had another Good Order Squad up North and now moved them in the CA of the MMG - would it be allowed to fire in the CA previously established - or did the Squad/Fire Group also lose this ability to also Fire in this direction since it didn't fire them during SFF? ?

To make it even more complicated and as we know nothing is complicated in the English Edition of the Rule book what if the Sqd/MMG had Fired (if allowed) at the moving Squad at I2 could it now again swing back and resume firing to the North/East? ? ?

I survived and wanting to tie up even more of his Fire Groups move into J2 - Adjacent to the Fire Group in K2.

So now they get to FPF against me and A8.31 is almost but not the same as A8.3 in that now it talks about any possessed MGs "must be fired".

Which again raises the question of the MMG's CA being North/West and my Squad coming from the East is now facing what - Just the Squad again - or - In FPF now I have to face both the Sqd and MMG? ? ? ?

If both and again if I go back up North and move a Squad what direction is the MMG facing now?

NOTE: The shot up North would be based upon my Squad being Broken since it would have to be able to fire in that direction or would my even being Broken count as a closer target? ? ?

OK I attached a picture - asked a lot of I am sure stupid questions to the group - and it is an American Holiday (Happy Thanksgiving to Everyone) but hopefully the world of ASl has time to answer.

We stopped the game at the end of this movement as the importance of getting CA, SFF, and FPF right would play an important part in my getting another 3 guys set up to get off the board for the win.

I wanted to move guys from the Left and Right and back and tie up his MG's CA - but if that is not the case I am not sure of the purpose behind the rule and or how to apply it towards SFF/FPF and for the Moving side to use it to their benefit.

I am sure someone can help not only answer the question - but provide some tactical answer as well.

Later,

Earl

PS - Snow makes everything look better. . .

May I suggest that you present your rules questions in a more brief, synthetic way?
Having to read through such a long post - even though I like your congeniality - to deduce what the essential elements of your question are is quite difficult.
For me, at least.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Asking questions to obtain an answer you can use is an art. Keep at it, Earl. We'll struggle with you.

Also, if you toggle on the function that allows PMs, we can manage some issues one-on-one.

 

[clubby]

Keeping the questions and answers in the open forum not only encourages lively discourse between members but it presents the answers to those that may look for them in the future.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Natch. PM provides an opportunity for someone to go back and say, "I'm really not sure I get what you said here, could you rephrase it for me here so as to not waste bandwidth for the rest of the world?" Both methods have their uses.