Deck dice / fair dice

[RandyT0001]

von Marwitz,
I didn't go through the math in detail, but it generally looks correct. The only thing I would call into question is testing two dice at once. They could have offsetting errors. One could roll low while the other rolls high. Your experiment relies on the dice being identical. I think this is an error. Dice are not identical. Precision dice are very close to identical and for all practical reasons are identical.

So Gamescience precision dice, Koplow precision dice, any manufacturer of backgammon precision dice are acceptable precision dice or are there 'ASL tournament' authorized precision dice retailers?

 

[von Marwitz]

von Marwitz,
I didn't go through the math in detail, but it generally looks correct. The only thing I would call into question is testing two dice at once. They could have offsetting errors. One could roll low while the other rolls high. Your experiment relies on the dice being identical. I think this is an error. Dice are not identical. Precision dice are very close to identical and for all practical reasons are identical.
Steve

This is a valid point. In fact, I have thought of it when I started off rolling, but I was simply too lazy to do the extra documentation (my wife already had that doubtful glance on her face...).

Non-identical dice could have an extra impact on things like ROF, AFVs falling into cellars, etc.

Theoretically, my dice could both be worse than they appear but even out on the bell-curve average.
I reckon, the possibility of both dice being very bad in an opposite way to even out is yet more improbable, though, than each die being just a tad inferior to the "perfect" die.

von Marwitz

 

[Steven Pleva]

So Gamescience precision dice, Koplow precision dice, any manufacturer of backgammon precision dice are acceptable precision dice or are there 'ASL tournament' authorized precision dice retailers?

Battle School is where I get all my precision dice. You can get cool themed dice, special ROF or dust dice or plain old precision backgammon dice. Chris is an ASLer so I like supporting one of our own. Besides, he's a great guy - that's not surprising because he's Canadian...
Steve

 

[Steven Pleva]

Theoretically, my dice could both be worse than they appear but even out on the bell-curve average.
I reckon, the possibility of both dice being very bad in an opposite way to even out is yet more improbable, though, than each die being just a tad inferior to the "perfect" die.

I would not be surprised if you had non-precision dice that were fair. I've tested non-precision dice that were well within tolerance for 500 rolls. I've also tested non-precision dice that failed to a 95% confidence level. My precision dice passed with flying colors...
Steve

 

[stuh42asl]

ASL is not broken..............so like the old saying goes if it is not broken don't fix it. Cards are not ASL, dice are.

 

[Steven Pleva]

ASL is not broken..............so like the old saying goes if it is not broken don't fix it. Cards are not ASL, dice are.

I don't think the game would be much different using cards or dice. That is the number one reason not to use cards. Not that it would change things much. I'll have to try it...
Steve

 

[von Marwitz]

I don't think the game would be much different using cards or dice. That is the number one reason not to use cards. Not that it would change things much. I'll have to try it...
Steve

Even before the first deck-dice card was drawn in an effort to purge perceived drawbacks of (precision-)dice, discussion sprung up here how many decks and reshufflings might be required to counter the theoretical threat of card counting...

I will go at some length and back to the roots and tell y'all a story:


Njørd's Wealth

A merchant came to the beach and there perceived a man lying in the sand next to a fishing-boat. He approached the man and said: "Fisherman, I have been looking for you. I want to buy all of your fish and make you wealthy."

"Get out of the sun and come back tomorrow. Today, all my fish is already sold" the fisherman answered.

"But it is early in the day and you can still catch a lot more fish."

The fisherman sat up and pulled his hat from his face. "Why should I do that? Don't you see that I am busy?"

"I am a merchant and will buy any fish that you bring me. Soon you'll be able to buy a larger net."

"My net is good. It catches all I need."

"Fisherman, don't you understand: You can earn more and buy another boat."

"My boat will serve me well for a long time to come."

"You are lacking vision, fisherman. It won't be just one other boat. In a few years, you will own a fleet that will do the fishing for you. I will make you a rich man."

"What shall I do with riches?"

"Then you can do all you want."

"Get out of the sun and sit down." The Fisherman grasped the hand of the merchant: "I already do what I want. Today we sit in the sun and tomorrow we will go fishing. Maybe we will catch what you are really looking for. For now, enjoy Njørd's wealth. By the way, my name is Njørd. Just Njørd."

_____________________

For now, I use dice. Regular dice.

von Marwitz

 

[Hemaelstrom]

I don't think the game would be much different using cards or dice. That is the number one reason not to use cards. Not that it would change things much. I'll have to try it...
Steve

It makes a great difference to those who like to feel like a god rolling dice to decide the fate of the puny cardboard mortals. Drawing a card would feel too much like community chest i think. But i can appreciate the need when the music of the dice is inconvenient.

 

[Eagle4ty]

.....But I cannot follow people that try to tell me using precision dice or not has in itself any significant impact on the game and therefore their use should be made mandatory for tournaments etc. Even less I can accept people that allege dishonest motives if people do not use or decline their use.

DR average of 6.916 against 7.147 in 1000 DRs to my disfavor.
DR average of 6.998 against 7.085 in 1000 DRs to my favor.

I am convinced that the above differences are not what usually decides tournaments.
It's the differences of the skill levels of players that do which deviate at a greater extent as to allow for a significant impact of the above DR average differences.
And it's when you roll crap or superb that matters.


Cheers,
von Marwitz

I limit myself to only playing on precision boards with precision lain overlays if need. A simple check on the exact positioning of the center dot of each hex and absolute precision when it comes to hexspine runs simply takes a matter of a half hour or so checking (the number of boards in use and their alignment may alter this some as they may have to be trimmed to attain perfect alignment) and you're ready to play a friendly game. I'm a little less picky with a LOS string as long as it's not thicker nor thinner than a standard weight sewing thread (color be damned), but when drawing a LOS it MUST be placed EXACTLY in the center of the dot or vertex.

 

[RandyT0001]

I limit myself to only playing on precision boards with precision lain overlays if need. A simple check on the exact positioning of the center dot of each hex and absolute precision when it comes to hexspine runs simply takes a matter of a half hour or so checking (the number of boards in use and their alignment may alter this some as they may have to be trimmed to attain perfect alignment) and you're ready to play a friendly game. I'm a little less picky with a LOS string as long as it's not thicker nor thinner than a standard weight sewing thread (color be damned), but when drawing a LOS it MUST be placed EXACTLY in the center of the dot or vertex.

Do you use a national renowned millwright company to set up your game table, chairs, boards and overlays for each tourney you attend or are you willing to trust local millwrights for such a demanding job?

 

[RandyT0001]

My opinion on the OP is that using a dice deck as a substitute for rolling dice would require the return of the drawn card back into the deck, whether it is 72 cards or 108 cards, followed by a double reshuffle in an electric machine shuffler before a new card can be drawn. Only by doing this would I accept the result as truly random. Of course, doing the card reinsertion with a double reshuffle after each card is drawn will slow the game considerable. It is quicker and easier to accept the results of randomized dice without making excuses and whining about the outcomes when they do not favor your side in the game for a few rolls. Grow up or move to a different hobby, like quilting.

As to the questions concerning comparisons of standard dice to precision dice for friendly games and tournament games my position is that for friendly games it should be what mutual agreement can be reached between players. For friendly games, standard dice, precision dice, using one set of dice for both players is all reasonable as long as my criteria (as outlined below) is accepted also. If a TD has certain dice rules such as stated by Steve Pleva for the Albany tournament, I would agree as long as my opponent accepts my additional criteria below. I am willing to let a 50/50 randomized die determine the final decision for both players to use my criteria if that is the only way to settle a dispute.

At the Craps table in a casino, the dice must be thrown across the twelve to fourteen foot long table and bounce off the far end of the table to be valid. Why? Because a person can manipulate the outcome of a short, low energy dice throw if they practice their manual throw to achieve that purpose. I have seen gamers roll dice out of their hand, imparting the necessary ‘spin’ to manipulate the results to their favor. So have the casinos. The requirement that the throw bounce off the far end of the Craps table introduces greater randomness into the outcome which mitigates any manipulation. In the pursuit to be “fair” by requiring precision dice be used at tournaments, one should also require that no short, low energy dice throws by hand be permitted. My additional criteria are all dice throws have to: 1) use a three baffled (minimum) dice tower, 2) use a hand covered, shaken (dice) glass (rotating a glass in a stirring motion is inadequate for true randomization), or 3) roll dice out of a shaken (dice bouncing side to side) opaque, backgammon dice cup into a dice tray. If “fairness” is important then “fairness” should not just apply to the dice but also to the method to achieve randomization of the dice.

 

[Philippe D.]

I would not be surprised if you had non-precision dice that were fair. I've tested non-precision dice that were well within tolerance for 500 rolls. I've also tested non-precision dice that failed to a 95% confidence level. My precision dice passed with flying colors...
Steve

One should be aware that even perfectly balanced dice will also fail a 95% confidence level test sometimes.

What von Marwitz has done is something I've wanted to do for some time. Most likely, testing a pair of BV dice vs a pair of Battleschool dice, since this is all that I have - but I'd keep track of individual dices' rolls, not sums of two. When I get to it, I'll make sure I post the results here

 

[kcole4001]

Well, first off another plus one for Battleschool dice. Cool dice, great service, pretty hard to beat.

Now, I know with absolute certainty that the precision dice I bought (and I have a decent assortment) do indeed roll better than the stock ASL dice.
I loved the ASL dice, since the color variety was perfect for almost all random selection occasions, so I was initially a little reluctant to give them up.
Now, I've gotten rid of quite a few of the white dice, they always seemed to be the trouble makers, the colored dice seemed a bit better averaged overall.

However, the precision dice roll so much better it's not a point of contention any more.
And by better, I do NOT mean better for me, better for my opponent, more consistently, etc.

They are very noticeably much less streaky than the old ASL dice.
I get low rolls, I get malfs, and what you'd normally expect in between, so does my son with his set (I use whatever nationality we're playing for the scenario).
But, there are definitely far fewer streaks of good or bad luck, so things appear much more fair.
Before one of us would get a streak of luck going and it would last most of the scenario (never all the way through, oddly), even though each of us were using separate sets of dice.

I did not do the math, so apologies to those wanting hard facts, I'm very much a seat of the pants player when it comes to percentages.
I just don't care about the numbers, I've been playing ASL/SL and many other games long enough to appreciate the odds without having to know the exact number.
I get why others want to know, it just isn't worth the time to me.

I don't expect to convince anyone who wants the numbers properly crunched, but I wouldn't post this if I wasn't absolutely convinced it's true.
I'm not justifying the money I spent on the dice, initially I though they'd make a nice accessory, nothing more, they're just dice after all, how much difference could they make, right?
But they do, at least in my experience when I and my son Tom roll them anyway, and after all that's what matters.

So if someone's sitting on the fence, I say try a pair and find out for sure. At the very least they look cool.

As far as card counting goes, always reshuffle after a draw, problem solved.
And if you suspect a person of card counting, why are you playing him? Card counting is cheating, no less than any other form.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

How about one of these?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_rKSJ4ZjXAhVC0GMKHeelCKMQjRwIBw&url=http://1stopretroshop.com/item-pages/collectible-toys/pop-o-matic-game-dice.htm&psig=AOvVaw1xrmW7aBRMJsBpzJ5rANR7&ust=1509466846435744

 

[Robin Reeve]

Sheer conservatism is a very weak argument, from an intellectual point of view.

 

[Philippe D.]

As far as card counting goes, always reshuffle after a draw, problem solved.
And if you suspect a person of card counting, why are you playing him? Card counting is cheating, no less than any other form.

If you reshuffle after a draw (meaning, the just drawn card goes back into the deck, and then you do a sufficient amount of shuffling), then there is no possible card counting. But you're slowing the game down.

As for other forms of card counting... they are no more cheating than when you're playing with OBA, and you keep track of how many red and black chits have been drawn. It's just keeping track of the game state.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Sheer conservatism is a very weak argument, from an intellectual point of view.

Yes, but so is the assumption that change necessarily equals progress.

 

[STAVKA]

The great majority would never have started to play ASL if it was based on card # instead of dice since it would be a time-thief , occupy table space and more expensive than Precision Dice.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Yes, but so is the assumption that change necessarily equals progress.

I agree. Some are rushing into a wall while blowing a horn.

 

[jrv]

If you reshuffle after a draw (meaning, the just drawn card goes back into the deck, and then you do a sufficient amount of shuffling), then there is no possible card counting.

If you shuffle (well) after every draw, cards are equivalent to dice. The OP's purpose was not to make something the same as dice, but to make something different from dice. What he objects to is that with dice any stream of results is possible. You could roll all twos or all twelves in a game. It won't happen often, but it is theoretically possible.

With card decks and not shuffling often, you will get a result that is closer to the expected "middle" distribution. For instance (as an atypical example to demonstrate a point) if your game had exactly 72 draws and you used two 36-card decks without shuffling and without replacement, you would get the expected distribution exactly. Further you could never have three two results nor three twelve results in a game. In a more realistic usage of cards, the sequence would probably not be exactly the expected distribution but it would likely be closer than with dice. He believes this is fairer.

I have a number of problems with this. As previously discussed it makes card counting possible. Attempts to make card-counting "difficult" tend to push the results away from the expected distribution and towards what you would expect with dice. Next, even though it makes the over-all game move toward the center, it doesn't necessarily mean that the individual players are balanced. I could draw all the high values and you all the low. One could attempt to patch this up by giving both players individual decks, but if one player will be rolling a lot more than the other, then the deck sizes ought to be tailored to match the number of rolls that the player makes. Otherwise the player that makes fewer DRs will see a result that resembles dice, and the player that makes more DRs will see a result that tends toward the middle.

As far as I can tell, if using cards to replace dice makes you feel better about the fairness of the game, you may not understand the ramifications of what you are doing.

JR